What I've noticed in my limited experience is that Asian Americans in the arts tend to be more likely to be dating outside of their race. So if you are an artist, I would probably assume your boyfriend was white. If you worked a normal 9-5 job or had a more traditional career, I'd probably assume he was Asian. This tends to be more accurate for Asian American women, but I find it common in the men too.

I don't think it is an issue of geography since I have lived in NYC and LA and it is the same on both coasts.

I've always found this topic to be of interest. For the straight world, I wouldn't assume an asian-american woman would be dating a white man. But then again I'm not straight.

To answer your second question, I think the gay SF community is also diverse enough for asians to date asians and whites (as well as latinos and blacks).

Here's a GAY blog that touches on these topics . . .

www.urbanrice.org

lisamac: I think your friend's comment says more about his knowledge of the SF Bay Area -- or lack thereof -- than it does about dating in our community. Our area is a big melting pot: I see Asian American women dating whites, Asians, hapas, African-Americans...

I live in San Francisco and I have noticed that although many Asian women date outside their race, a majority do date Asian men. I have been living in San Francisco for 5 years now and have only gone on a date with one white guy while dating several Asians.

I lived in the bay area for 7 years or so and would have assumed the exact same thing. I don't think that this is different for New York either. Conversely, I would say that if an asian guy said he had a girlfriend I would assume she is asian. Statistically, this is realistic according to most studies and census counts ..

Well, I too am a woman of a japanese and mixed caucasian background and I happen to live on oahu. Due to the fact that people here in my home town are not of a specific race/ethnicity, (majority of us tend to be of more than one nationality) nobody tends to stereotype against the other. I believe that by catagorizing people by either their race or gender is quite horrid since no specific race is 'superior' or 'inferior' to another. So yes, by assuming the partner of a person is of a certain gender is just as bad as saying a certain race is 'lower class'.

In response to Melissa's comment-

In an ideal world, race and gender wouldn't be issues. However, in our society, which is far from ideal, race, gender, sexuality, etc. DO matter. Not every place in the world is Hawaii, the only state that has an Asian majority population. Being japanese/filipino myself, but living in the Bay Area, I see exactly what the dude (that the writer talks about) says. I do see a gender disparity in the Asian-American dating scene, where AA women increasingly prefer to date interracially than to date AA men. Anyone who denies this is blind. That said, I also believe that anyone should be able to date whomever they see fit, which is why I don't waste too much of my energy railing on these issues.

I agree with Tim T, the above poster. I am an Asian American male in New York City. Most people here will tell you that an Asian Man/Causasian Woman couple will always turn heads. They are so rare... you can literally go days, if not weeks, without seeing one. If generalizations are fit to be made from my own observations, Asian American women prefer dating white men. It's neither here not there what I think about this, but I can tell you that this is a generalization that is widely accepted as truth in my peer community.

I'm an AA woman living in SF. And I would never assume that your boyfriend was white. Where straight people are concerned, I see lots of AM/AF couples. And while it's true that I see more AF/WM couples than other combinations when an Asian women dates outside her race, I don't think it's rare to see AM/WW couples. I also see BM/AF couples. The only combo I don't see much of is AM/BF. Among my friends, I see a lot of inter-Asian dating.

I think there are differences between the east and west coast simply on the basis of demographics. And of course one would suspect similar variances between north and south and the 'coasts' and the 'heartlands'.

Larger concentration of asians on the west coast makes it 'eaiser' for AA women to date AA men. That said, all the data i've seen (and the people i've seen) indicates that AA women tend to date first AA men and second (and a big percentage!) W men. Those with a prefernece for W men are much more fixated and vocal about it. A cruise thru CL's W4M section will probably back this up. At times it makes me look askance at AA women 'complaining' about "yellow fever" in WM since there seems to be a pretty bad case of "snow blindness" in many AA women.

AA men tend to date AA women and (a very distant) second W women. Neither W or M of the East Asian 'variety' tend to date B men or women. In that mix I see more SE asians than anything else. Latino men and women are harder to discern as there are both W and non-W Latinos so you can't always be sure.

As for my 'assumption' should you mention your boyfriend - if you seemed very 'suburbanite American', then I would assume a W Man; if I knew you worked at Hyphen then I would assume an AA man; if you presented that 'liberal college woman' thing who wanted to be properly 'understood' (and there is nothing wrong with being understood!!) then I would bet strong on your BF being a W man as the common argument is that "he gets it" better than most AA men - or so I have heard. I often wonder if these women that posit the "gets it" thing have brothers and why their brothers don't 'get it' if they've 'gotten it'? Why did 'it' miss the males in their house?

If you are South Asian then I would assume either a SA man or a W man.

I would not assume a B or clearly Latino man in any scenario.

I am so sick of this subject. Look at the numbers. Most Asian American Women date Asian American men. Most Asian American Women marry Asian American men. Yes i understand White is beautiful in this country, white equals wealth and power in America. Colonial nostalgia still exits and with that unequal power dynamics over sex, money and power. Yes i am aware of this, yes i agree more Asian American women date white men than Asian American men date white women. But this is still a minority of the cases. Most Asian Americans date and marry each other especially in areas with relatively high concentrations of Asian Ams. I am sure in communities with only like 1% is Asian Am, the case is different. But back to the bay are example. It totally depends on where you live in the Bay Area. Maybe in the mission or the marina, pac heights or downtown in sf or Walnut creek, dubin orinda, you c a lot of asian girls with white guys.

But go the the richmond, the sunset go to daly city, go to oakland, milpitas, , hayward and more integrated parts etc. If you go outside the bubble of these white dominate areas, all you will c is Asian American couples. Have any of u SF folk even been to the great mall for gods sake?! have u ever been to Cupertino? What kind of couples do you see there? Go take a trip. The bay extends past SF. South Bay represent!

To all you Asian American women who only date white men, and will not date an Asian American man (and probably a latino or black one either), y'all are self haters and you have turned your back on your people! It shows how weak spirited u are that u need a white guy to prove ur value and or acceptance in this country. Just pathetic, you are the white mans whore! But to all you ppl who view an individual for their soul and values and not the color of their skin, much love to you. We gotta stop using each other to fill our insecurities, fears, emotional voids, obsessions and fantasies. Lastly, yo all u Asian American men out there who use the excuse of not approaching a girl u like cause u think she only likes white guys or does not date Asian guys, give yourself more credit! U gotta be brave to get what u want in life. DO NOT believe the white man’s hype! We are strong and beautiful! Plus any worthwhile woman would not judge u on the color of your skin, any worthwhile woman would judge you for u are and not what u look like. Stop using that bullshit as a crutch and an excuse not to get what u want and deserve in life!

The above poster enough writes, I am so sick of this subject. Look at the numbers. Most Asian American Women date Asian American men. Most Asian American Women marry Asian American men.

I think you should look at the numbers and examine them yourself. Leave aside recent imigrants who arrived after the age of 13. The most recent US Census data suggests that among the 1.5 generation, the ratio of Asian women in an interracial marriages to those married to other Asians is 1:1. The percentage of Asian women in interracial marriage is, across the board on all ethnic groups, 10-20% higher than that of Asian men. I don't know of the figures for 2nd generation Asian Americans, but I would guess that the percentage gap is bigger. (I could be wrong on this, but I am second generation and I am hard pressed to name more than two Asian-Asian marriages among my group of friends and acquaintances.)

In the New York area, I do indeed find a higher prevalence of Asian-Asian couples in the Asian immigrant communities of Flushing, Sunset Park, Chinatown, Fort Lee, and so on. But elsewhere this is certainly not the case. Put crassly -- if I observe an Asian American women speaking fluent English, I assume it to be the case that she prefers to date non-Asians. I'm not trying to hate on anyone (I've dated as many non-Asians as I have Asians) -- it's just that I dislike when people make statements like the one that the above poster made without qualifying the nuances of the numbers between recent immigrants and those who are US-raised.

I'm going to have to agree with Tim T.

When you observe Asian couples, there is a very strong indication that both these Asians are either recent immigrants or at least the woman is.

The fact of the matter is that both 1.5 and 2nd generation Asian American women are marrying out at almost 50%. Of all Asian women, immigrant or otherwise, 30% of them are involved with a white male.

Those figures are huge considering the next largest group to outmarry are black men at 10%. Asian men outmarry at around 9%.

It's gotten so "bad" than when I meet an Asian American woman who was born here and is involved with someone, there is a very high chance that her husband or boyfriend is white. Among some groups such as Korean American women, they are more likely to have a white mate than Asian.

Statistics can be abused but they don't really lie. The boom in Asian American growth is only spurred on by recent immigrants from Asia. There was a study, name escapes me at the moment, that if the US government were to cease all immigration from Asia, the Asian community would remain stagnant or even wipe itself out in a few generations due to the high outmarriage rate of Asian American women.

A perfect example are American Jews. Their outmarriage rate is currently 55% and the population has declined over the past few decades.

They are, in essence, being bred out.

Oh, one more thing...

The reason why the interracial dating and marriage rate for Asian women is so high is because of the aggressiveness of both Asian women and white men to date each other. For the most part, Asian women and white men have a fetish for each other which white women and Asian men do not. I've gone out with many non-Asian women before and they all had the same mentality before they dated me in that they've held out for someone of their race until they gave up because it took too long to find a match. In essence, other women believe in a slight superiority of their own men, Asian women do not have this belief. Actually, we're considered inferior to white men in all respects. It doesn't matter if it's based on their real life experiences or if they've been influenced by Western media. We've become interchangeable because white men are able to follow and teach Asian culture just as much as Asian men.

Asian men are 2nd class to white men in their eyes.

The fact of the matter is that Asian women have become the most suckered demographic in believing how awesome "interracial dating" and "assimilation" are when, in actuality, these two subjects benefit white men the most. Had no one been dating white men or white men felt they were "losing" in the interracial dating game, they'd be the first ones to protest interracial dating. Also, dimwitted minorities are the ones who believe assimilation was created to destroy any type of cultural uniqueness to Asians and Latinos and replaced by the generic American culture which is "white" culture.

There are just so many social ramifications that come from Asian women dating/marrying out such as promotion of the emasculated Asian male. Hell, who cares? As long as they get to date and marry white men, all is good in the world for them. They "made" it in this country.

Tim T's census information is correct in that for every Asian American woman with an Asian American man, there is an Asian American woman with a white man. It matches the idea that 50% of Asian American woman are with white men.

Hey, I'm not bitter. I'm currently with a white woman because I couldn't find an Asian woman because they were too busy chasing the ubermenshen white man. I figure that if Asian women are going to contribute to white superiority, I might as well help hasten that belief.

"Also, dimwitted minorities are the ones who believe assimilation was created to destroy any type of cultural uniqueness to Asians and Latinos and replaced by the generic American culture which is "white" culture."

-should read-

Also, dimwitted minorities are the ones who believe assimilation is good when, in actuality, it was created to destroy any type of cultural uniqueness to Asians and Latinos and replaced by the generic American culture which is "white" culture.

Why is it that when asian women date white guys it's seen as selling out, and self hating and white-worshipping? But when asian men date white women it's seen as empowering? That's some fucked up sexist shit! I'm tired of hearing this, especially from asian men who complain about asian women dating outside the race. That you think this way means you yourself buy into the notion of white superiority.

That's because the ratio is completely imbalanced, Sandra.

If ratio of Asian men dating white women were the same or close to the same as Asian women who are with white men, I doubt you'd hear much of it. In fact, if the situation were reversed, I would be nodding in agreement that Asian men were sellouts.

Additionally, Asian women have inherited a very nasty stereotype, which I think is fully deserved, in that they actively go out of their way to bash Asian men and Asian culture in general as if it were earning them brownie points with white men.

Sorry to say but it isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.

hmmm. a bit of a fire storm here on this. i guess to me the thing isn't about 'hating on' or even being "bitter" about it, but just observation.

It would seem that, based upon the statistics, the ratio of 'outmarriage' for Asian women is very much greater than the out marriage rates for Asian men (30+% v. less than 10%). Also, the outmarriage rate for Asian women is much greater than for any other demographic except Jews. So would you conclude that Asian women are more 'openminded' in their selection of mates?

Possibly but, at the same time their outmarriage rate is 3+ times that of males (and I think the 10% figure cited by others is very high), the 'selectivity' of 'outmarriage' partners for Asian women is VERY specific - white men (98+%). So even if one were to argue that Asian women were in some way seeking to experience the 'broader spectrum' of the "American mosaic", their clear preference is for a very narrow slice of that spectrum.

With regard to a 'double standard' being applied to Asian women v. Asian men and 'out dating' or 'outmarriage', there may be some of that but then again consider this - To the extent that Asian women date ALL types of men - Asian and otherwise from a non-biased standpoint; and given their much higher percentage of outmarriage one would expect that there is a statistically large enough sample such that you would expect to see a greater percentage of AW outmarriage to non-Asians other than white. But you don't. And there must be a reason for that as well. So you could [possibly] draw some conclusions from that data too.

Granted, I suspect that you also won't see much diversity in the mates of outmarrying Asian men, but given their small percentage that may be a result of the small sample population. Or maybe it is a result of the same 'cultural trait' that is reflected in the statistics in Asian women.

If you assume a pretty even distribution of white men to white women (and similarly for Asians) there would be roughly equal population pools for both {Asian and white) sexes to draw on for mates...but Asian men do not and Asian women do. And the percentage of 'outmarrying' white women to white men is much closer than that for Asians (across genders). So it be thought that the 'market' for white men that want to marry Asian women is 'exhausted'. But what about the other way around? Any guesses out there?

So it seems that, based on the statistics there is a fairly strong preference amongst Asian women to marry white men. THIS IS CERTANILY NOT STRONGER THAN THEIR PREFERENCE TO MARRY ASIAN MEN (2+ TO 1). But still much higher than for any other non-White group except Jews. And I don't know how Jewish outmarriage breaks down on the gender basis.

So a question might be raised as to 'what's up with that'? How are Asian women being 'socialized' such that such a high poercentage of them "prefer' white men to Asian men and to every other type of man too?

Now the irony I find when listening to Asian women complain about 'yellow fever' sufferers is just a personal point of bemusement and not germane to the discussion.
But....

Sure, people may have their ethnic preferences of any sort, which you may see as justifiable or not. But viable relationships are not as cut and dry as ethnic preferences, either. Whatever happened to things like having the same sense of humor, or the same outlook on life, or the same goals? Or because you genuinely like them as people?

Dating is hard, no matter what ethnicity or gender you are. Being white doesn't automatically admit people into dating heaven--there are plenty of miserably single white people out there. And interracial relationships aren't exactly a piece of cake, either. (By the way, I've seen several hapa newborns in SF in the past month--with white moms.)

But what certainly doesn't help the Asian dating scene is the bashing on Asian American women with things like the "deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes," or calling them materialistic sluts, as I have read many times elsewhere. That's sexism. And being a person of color doesn't absolve you from that.

To Ken: your girlfriend might be a bit bummed out to know that you aren't with her for wonderful personality.

Rebecca,

i hope you didn't take my post to say that AA women are 'materialistic sluts' or they are now burdened with 'the deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes'. That last one would be a slippery slope as you could apply it to almost all groups in some form or fashion as a justification of troubles they might be having now. I also certainly agree that similar traits - sense of humor, goals, outlook on life, etc - and the broader 'genuinely like the person' should be the driving force in mate selection. the observation I have is that if these were the real drivers in all circumstances of AA women 'outmarriage' you would think that you would see more 'alignment' of these 'parameters' across a more diverse selection of partner 'types'. Wouldn't you?

Eddy I completely agree. Why is it only about Asian Americans and Whites? What about the latinos, blacks, etc etc. Why does this debate only include these 2 groups. Are these other groups not even part of the dating/marriage pool? It seems like it from this discussion. Do not be so naive people. We are all a product of our environment and are influenced by it. What does our society tell us about AAW and AAM? What images does it portray? What themes does it reinforced on a daily basis? If you identify those then it will be easier to understand this situation.

Through tv, radio, music, movies, magazines advertisements etc. Our society teaches that White men and women are beautiful and desirable, That Black men are lazy, criminals. Black women are overly sexual and aggressive. That Latino men are stupid, foreign, gangsters. That Latino women are overly sexual, foreign, maids. That Asian women are overly sexual, foreign, sell outs. That Asian men are ugly, weak and foreign. No wonder we c Asian American women ONLY dating white men. And Rebbecca don't give me this personality, interest, outlook on life, sense of humor BS. If that was the case why don't Asian American Women date high percentages of other types of men????? why is it they ONLY white men if they do date outside their race????? Even in areas with high numbers of minorities like CA,NY. Don't be so naive. We are all influenced by the messages of our society. Take a look around its everywhere....

My current girlfriend knows my history and that I love her for who she is regardless of race. She also knows that I have held out looking for a great Asian girlfriend first because of cultural and, dare I say it, racial reasons.

Since they were too busy chasing white men, I had nowhere else to turn but to find a great woman regardless of race.

I'm happy even though she isn't Asian and she has respected my reasons to find an Asian girl first. She doesn't hold it against me.

In response to the first question, I don't think it's the location at all. All I need to know are two points:

1.) If she's born here or Americanized (1.5 or 2nd gen).

2.) If she has a boyfriend/husband.

Chances are, the first thing that comes to mind is that he's white regardless of location.

I also love how the knee-jerk reaction from Asian women is to either go the "we're compatible and colorblind" or "I can do whatever I want" route. That much is true but then it begs the response that 1.) black and Latinos aren't compatible with Asians and 2.) just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good fuckin' idea. I can drive with my feet if I wanted to but it doesn't mean it doesn't have an ramifications.

God, the social ignorance of Asian women is so telling.

The "deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes" was Rob, above.

Think--from what I have seen, the stereotype of Asian women as "sell outs" is one held by Asian men. (See Model Minority forum discussions for poignant examples.)

Uh... I don't think I'm naive at all. All I'm saying is that I think it's a more nuanced discussion than gene-pool purity vis-a-vis white dominance, one that should include gender issues--and not just from a male perspective.

I'm going to break it down very easily for everyone and explain why the interracial disparity is so large. While I don't have all the answers, I majored in Sociology in college and wrote about this issue was my college thesis. Apparently, it was interesting enough for the college humanities board to ask if I would considering writing a book so it can be used in my college Asian American studies class but that sounds like alot of work.

1.) Asian women are dating and marrying out at such massive rates because, simply put, Asian women don't need Asian men. If all Asian American men died out, Asian women would be fine when it comes to dating because races would be just fine in picking them up. There are plenty of white/black/Latino men lusting after Asian women so Asian women have their pick. Other female ethnicities have proven that, while they're fine with interracial dating, they largely prefer their own race. It has also been observed in dating surveys that the Asian women demographic is the only ones that has no preference for their own men. Additionally, they've found out that Asian women actually have a preference for white men, not Asian men. Sorry, Asian guys. We're relegated to 2nd class. Deal with it. However, I would like to add why Asian women get hit on much more often by non-Asian men. First, there are more non-Asian men than Asian men in this country and law of numbers apply. Second, when non-Asian men see so many Asian women with non-Asian men, it gives them the impression that Asian women would rather be with them than Asian men. I've seen this first hand. I hang out with my buddies after work and we always have a white mousy co-worker with us. When we talk to non-Asian women, he'll clam up and keep to himself. When an Asian woman sits down at the bar, his head picks up and his chest puffs out. He has become "Charisma Man." I've talked to two other white friends who have dated Asian women but are married to white women that in the white male community, Asian women are seen as "easy targets" and "home runs." Not necessarly easy "one-night stands" or slutty but rather the least likely to shoot down a white man. In essence, white men believe Asian women are glad that a white man is talking to them. On a insulting level, Asian women are viewed as less picky, bitchy, and demanding than white women. This also tends to attract the bottom feeding white men who aren't up to par. Not being insulting or anything but the old saying is that white men who date Asian women are the ones who aren't social or "good" enough to date white women.

It's gotten so bad that everyone have noticed that Asian women are easy as proven in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NS1s408Ulc

This brings me to my next point.

2.) Inadvertent promotion of Asian male emasculation by Asian women. When society at large sees so many Asian women with non-Asian men as well as Asian women bashing Asian men (Asian women cannot deny that there are many of these, all Asian men know of at least one), they'll start to believe that Asian men just don't cut it when it comes to being a romantic rival. This causes even more headaches for Asian men as their sexuality and masculinity are constantly questioned. I've faced this myself, abiet jokingly, but it can lead to a lashing out in anger or:

3.) Demoralization. I've frequently heard from Asian women who are dating white men that Asian men don't hit or flirt with them; that they're too shy. Be that as it may, it's true. Part of it is due to culture. Like I said before, since there are more non-Asian men that are privy to Asian women, the odds of them getting hit on by non-Asian men are much higher. To add to that, there are many Asian men who are shy but have also become extremely ddemoralized by this fact in seeing so many Asian women with non-Asian men. They start to feel as if Asian women have abandoned them, don't love them, or that Asian women don't find them attractive. If your own race doesn't find you attractive, how can any other race find you attractive? Ever wonder why Asian men don't hit on you, maybe it's because you'll flat out reject them because they think you'd rather have a white man.

I'm not denying that Asian women can do whatever they wish but one has to realize that there are social ramifications. I'm sure we've all heard of Chaos Theory, or the Butterfly Effect. If not, it's the idea that something as small as a butterfly flapping it's wings is enough to affect ocean currents in another part of the world. If something so small can affect the bigger picture, how irresponsible must one be to believe that half of 1.5 and 2nd generation women dating and marrying out isn't going to have an affect on the Asian American community, Asian men, or society at large? It's simply mind boggling to believe it wouldn't.

In conclusion, I believe that the whole idea of Asian women complaining about constantly getting hit on by creepy white men or men in general is caused by Asian women alone. You've given non-Asian men an idea that you are more than willing to talk, date, or marry them. It's not really their fault. You've made the bed, now you'll have to sleep in it. What's sad is that most Asian women aren't bothered by it because it gives them a better chance of finding a boyfriend/husband, they just have to weed out the creepy ones first. In essence, instead of looking for a spouse, potential partners come to you.

Asian men in North America:

I have this to add. You're relegated to 2nd class. Yes, it's not fair but life isn't fair. That's all there is to it. I can offer you some pointers since I've traveled all over the world for work and I've seen quite a few things about the international dating scene.

If you want an Asian woman who will give you preference over a white guy, I suggest you go to Asia. Over there, they'll still love you for who you are. There's a bonus if you're an North American born Asian as you're foreign enough to be exotic but familiar enough to be safe. Also, you're also viewed as less sexist than the local men. This is especially true in Japan and Korea. In Great Britain, which includes Ireland and Scotland, Asian women date white men very often but there is a reason. The ratio of Asian men to women is almost 5:1 so they have no choice. Almost all the Asian women are scrambling to date and marry the few Asian men there. Interestingly enough, the main reason is since there are so few Asian men there, they're the ones who are considered "exotic" and since they're the same race, Asian women feel Asian men are easier to snatch. Unfortunatly, there have been side effects. Asian men over there have started to gain inflated egos because of this and are disloyal at times so if you're looking to start a family with a great Asian lady, you'll have a great British Asian woman who loves you as an Asian man. Plus, the accent is great.

If you want a Latin women, the ones in North America are perfectly fine but South America is very friendly to Asian men. In fact, the interracial dating disparity is skewed in favor of Asian men as there are no real negative connotations associated with Asian men. In fact, Asian men are viewed very highly as they are very loving, educated, and place family first.

If you want a white woman, the ones in North America are also willing to give you a try. A beautiful white friend of mine always said she never dated Asian men because she thought they never found white girls attractive. I said it's not that they're not interested but that they're very intimidated by white women because they don't think they find Asian men attractive. Talk about some serious miscommunication! She's currently married to a Korean American man. Also, Europe is great and where I spent the bulk of my time while abroad working. While they might not be going out of their way to date Asian men (except French women), European women are much more open minded about dating Asian men.

In essence, North America is the only place on Earth where Asian men have a very negative social stigma attached to them.

I've seen many Asian men who feel we should just suck it up and work harder than any other man. That's the mentality I've been going by but don't be surprised if you're relegated to 2nd class. You are and I'm not joking. You'll have to work twice as hard to land an Asian woman than a white guy. Someone said jokingly that if he has to work twice as hard to land an Asian woman, he might as well date a white woman. That leads to my last and final point: backlash

I don't condone this type of behavior but while I've noticed more support to interracial dating, I've also noticed a large segment of animosity directed at Asian women from Asian men. These aren't just bitter Asian men who can't get a date but Asian men with wives and girlfriends. Their reasoning for being angry? They feel it is a direct affront to their Asian brothers. They're not angry for themselves but rather Asian men as a whole. We all form our own communities be it cliques, Asian men/women, Korean/Japanese/Chinese/Thai, Asian Americans, Americans, human beings, etc.

Two of my cousins refuse to date Asian women and constantly degrade them in front of other races. In fact, many encourage negative Asian female stereotypes. Most of their Asian friends are all dating/married to non-Asian girls. As the Asian American community matures, I believe that this issue is going to blow up in our faces as the gender conflict gets larger. Right now, Asian Americans have chosen to ignore the fire that's raging down the street. By the time it gets to your doorstep, it'll be too late to stop.

Sorry, I forgot to address three more points.

First, the term "sellout." Second, why 95% of the non-Asian spouses are white. Third, blaming the issue solely on Asian male sexism.

I've heard the term "sellout" dished out more than once in my lifetime when it comes to this topic. Hell, Asian women have heard it quite often as well. The reason why many use this term to refer to Asian women is because of the feeling of abandonment of Asian men and culture as a whole. In essence, they've "sold us out" to be with white men rather than hash it and struggle with Asian men. Part of it has to do with the desire to abandon Asian culture completely. After all, the best way to promote and retain Asian culture is to be with an Asian man unless that Asian man happens to be adopted by whites. So, it's an indirect statement that dating or marrying a white man is a sign of wishing to remove oneself of their Asian heritage. Lastly, let's face it, white men are considered gods in this country and most of the world. They retain all of the financial, social, and media power in this country. They've also been enforcing the ideal for of beauty is white beauty. Therefore, when Asian women marry white men, it's viewed as a social climb or "selling out" their own community for a small chance to be included with white society. It's no different in the black community except they use a different term, "Uncle Tom."

If the situation were reversed, I'm sure Asian men would be called sellouts as well. Hell, they already are. Several Asian women have called me a sellout for dating white women because they believe I wish to remove myself from Asian culture. The reason why I understand why they used this term is because they're not always off the mark. The reason why is because I used to be the same type of person. If Asian men had white women, who are considered the epitome of female beauty, oogling them, I'm sure they'd welcome it without a problem. Therefore, why would Asian women be any different? Would Asian women ever complain if the epitome of male beauty, white men were oogling them? No. The only thing is, I'm brave to admit it from an Asian male perspective. Asian women are not and are attempting to tread two different paths. One, blame Asian men for everything and two, that they're better than that and spend an ordinate amount of time trying to convince themselves that they're above constant media bombardment.

Another interesting observation, which is not lost on anyone who has witnessed this phenomenon, is that if Asian women keep talking about colorblind love, why is it that being colorblind only applies to white men? Is it because black and Latino men aren't compatible with Asian women when it comes to interests. I, for sure, know there are many black and Latino men who are interested in Asian women so why isn't the interest returned? Is it because there is a certain limit to how far Asian women will go in order to find the right spouse? Are they not worth fighting for? In almost all Asian families, it is the wish of parents for their children to marry other Asians. The priority is for them to marry within their own cultural group first and then ethnicity. That places Asian men on at 10. While white men are somewhat accepted, they're placed around 9 when it comes to acceptability. Black and Latino men are placed almost near 2 when it comes to acceptability.

This is particularly interesting because it shows that Asian women are only willing to go so far to gain acceptance for their spouse so the real explanation from Asian women should be "I am colorblind when it comes to dating and marriage -to a certain extent-"

Lastly, we constantly hear that replies of Asian men being sexist and not waiting to deal with another Asian family. As the old saying goes, when you marry an Asian, you marry their family as well. I know some Asian women that choose to marry out because they don't want to have all this pressure upon them to be the perfect wife. That's fair enough. I've noticed that white families are much more tolerant of "flawed" daughters-in-law and are pretty lax when it comes to demands. In essence, Asian women are attempting to escape from the confines of Asian culture and society. That's not even a gripe of mine. Sometimes, people just want to deal with more than they have to.

Fair enough.

What's this about Asian men being more sexist? I find it gravely insulting because it presupposes the idea that non-Asian men are either not sexist or less prone to sexism. While I am fully willing to admit that Asian men in *Asia* are very sexist, there is a clear line between Asian and Asian American men. We're as American as the white guy next to us. What gives Asian women the right to imply that sexism is tied to race rather than individuals? Then we have the complaint that Asian men are attempting to control Asian women by dictating who they should date and marry. I have a newsflash for you, as much as Asian men grumble, it's not stopping you from doing anything. Half of Asian American women have a white spouse so it's obviously not working.

One thing I don't see is Asian women attempting to acknowledge any fault of their own in this situation. It's always the Asian men's fault and as long as Asian women are free to do what they want, all is good in the world. It's completely reckless and irresponsible. I'm not attempting to be "chicken little" by predicting doom and gloom but this is also part of a larger problem in understanding why the biggest obstacle to Asian American growth, enlightenment, and civil rights are.....Asian Americans themselves, not "The Man."

Rob,
interesting points. I wouldn't cite a YouTube post as a scholarly study on interracial dating in Black America. black men still outmarry at a less than 10% rate and black women at less than 5%. It seemed very much tongue-in-cheek and loaded with sarcasm.

I think the potential damage in the AA community due to 'gender conflict' is a concern, but we must remember that the MAJORITY of AA women STILL marry AA men.

The alleged 'accesibility' perception of AA women is an interesting point. To the extent that non-asian men see AA women with non-asian men, the perception is created that this is acceptable. I think that the converse - or alternative - view is even more important: to the extent that AA men do NOT see non-asian women with AA men, the AA men perceive that it is unacceptable for them to pursue these women. Quite possibly, the 'value' perception of AA men would rise in all 'markets' if AA men aggressively began seeking mates amongst non-asian women. Given the [alleged] rifts between BM and BW, it would seem to me that AA men might step into that [perceived] void nicely. Maybe even the 'left over' white women (abandoned by their asian women-seeking men) would welcome attention from AA men...but they are already being chased by B and L men - return to my option above!

You didn't really delve into an explanation of your amendment point 2 very much. Why are B and L men 'near 2' on the acceptability chart and by extension, B and L women?

I do have to agree with you on the 'sexist AA man' issue. Not to say that there are not sexist AA men, but it seems to me that for those raised here...or for those raised with their [assumingly] enlightened sisters whereever, they would hold similar views regarding social status\strata and gender roles as their sisters. So why isn't the AA female friend of the 'cool AA female' dating the brother of 'cool AA female' since he was raised in the same environment that made her 'cool AA female' so 'cool' to begin with? Was 'cool' left out of his upbringing?

Rebecca,
could you please offer some more on your insight/observations on the

"gene-pool purity vis-a-vis white dominance, one that should include gender issues"
aspects that you've mentioned in your post above? Do you find that the males of your AA friends' families do not subscribe to the same gender philosophies that the females of those families subscribe to AND in a more ethno-specific way than the white males raised in comparable settings? Do you find this variance to be only between white and asian males or is it between white males and all other males? In my observation, to the [perceived] extent that white men have dominated the development of this society, then with that development 'credit' comes the 'blame' for the male chauvinism that would ostensibly be your nemesis. White men are pigs too.

In short, many 'people of color' grumble about white people all the time, yet asians/asian americans seem to pair their grumbling with great efforts to associate with\affix themselves to those very same white people more than any other 'people of color' in the US.
We have a conundrum here.

No, I meant the comment at the very end of the video. It's gotten to the point that other communities are noticing that Asian women are with everyone except Asian men.

ahh! thanks.

I was reading this because i am WM who likes AA women. I just have this preference and didn't know it was such a big deal. I was surprised at different people saying we were just perverts and that AAF being with WMs was always with ugly and fat and undesirable WMs. I am actually good looking, educated, and can easily get a white woman. Whatever the reason for the hate against it, ALL men go by looks first. Women go by status and personality. It has nothing to do with being perverted, just on what you LIKE. There are plenty of WMs who date WFs and others, this is just my preference. It seems that many women say that men should look at their personality and intelligence first. This is just the way men are. Women definitely do not look at intelligence first as being attractive. NEITHER sex does. In fact, that is what she said not necessarily what she meant. We are (sexes) different and it needs to be noted, not that we (men) are perverts. That's dumb. It does not matter if you are an Asian male, a WM, a BM. You can ALL attract any race of women you want. As a man, MAN up, improve your self constantly and most women will find that attractive; and that is any race. I just don't see how a WM having a preference for AAF is perverted. Everybody has preferences so don't hate. I like black hair, that's the first thing I notice. I look at other things, but people just like some things more.

Ken,

leaping over Jesse's "Popeye" post (I am that I am and that's all that I am!), could you cover a bit more of your 'rating' system and how you derived that?

And the other thing that puzzles me is how it is that AA women are raised in a "soclally enlightened" manner - or so we are told which is key to their attraction to similarly raised men who share their 'interests, sense of humor, outlook, goals, etc' - and their brothers and I mean that literally; their male siblings are not. Do most AA households operate under a dual childrearing philosophy or policy? I've not seen that.

OK, numbers police here. Pull over, Eddy. You wrote, the MAJORITY of AA women STILL marry AA men. I have to differ, especially with your added emphasis. Recent immigrants might grant some credence to your remark, but for those groups for which there is data -- such as 1.5 generation Asians -- they are certainly outmarrying at an average of about 60%, depending on the ethnicity. (Break this down between genders, and you’ll see that the outmarriage rate of women skews the average greatly toward the high end.)

The requisite and laughably naive "c'mon Asian guys, man up and stand up for yourself"-type remarks aside, there's some great discussion here. -- too much to respond to. But what resonated with me in particular was rob's post above, following from where he writes, I find it gravely insulting because it presupposes the idea that non-Asian men are either not sexist or less prone to sexism...(snip).

I inevitably get dealt the sexist card when this topic comes up, only because I stand firm against people who say that there is "no accounting for taste" when it comes to Asian women who favor dating white men. Well, guess what: there is indeed accounting for taste -- a taste, which concertedly or not, is inculcated to favor a group that holds power in all ranks from hiring to promotion to publicity in all fields, whether it's media, publishing, advertising, finance, education, or politics. Like it or not, Asian women simply cannot divorce a preference for dating white men with its related economic and political ramifications -- those aggregate ramifications are simply too pronounced. They collectively form the elephant in the room, and those Asian women with white men who speak of their dating preferences as a live-and-let-live matter of choice are, I think, turning a blind eye to something which everyone else -- white men included -- is keenly aware.

As an aside (and OK, here is some hating to a particular group of sisters) -- I wonder how many Asian men in this discussion have heard one end of the "oh, I would never date an Asian man!" utterance from an Asian woman. I rarely -- if ever -- hear such a remark from Asian men, even when not in mixed company, but I routinely hear this from other Asian women. Is the act of shunning the so-called sexism and patriarchal domination of the immigrant Asian family such a gender-selected mission that Asian women are the only ones capable of being enlightened? Could you and would you -- for a second -- believe that your fellow brothers could be as enlightened and informed as you are?

(Tim T, 2nd gen Asian male)

Tim T,

thanks for your post.

I was giving the benefit of the doubt in my numbers. What I've read says nominally 30% of Asian women (in the US) are married to non-Asian men (and of that 98% are married to white men) and I have seen posted here numbers of 50% of AA (or 1.5 gen or other 'categorizers') so given the somewhat fuzzy nature of the numbers, I called it somewhere between 30 - 50% and giving the women the 'benefit of the doubt' I picked the lower number - hence "the majority of AA women are married to AA men". Maybe it is better stated that the majority of Asian women in the US are maried to Asian men. But if you stats are correct, they simply bolster my point and reignite my questions, which you also reiterated. Now I have heard Asian women say "I'll never date an Asian guy" (or black guy or latino guy) far more often than I have ever heard an Asian guy say "I'll never date an Asian gal" (but I can't say the same for black women or latino women - this prohibition seems to be 'gender indifferent' and deserves attention!). What 'tools' or "contaminants" are in place which makes it impossible (or even improbable) that an Asian guy raised in the same US household as his sister will arrive at adulthood as a sexist pig but somehow the daughter will not arrive at adulthood accepting those same gender dynamics? And HOW is it possible that this could occur in the US yet somehow white families (and apparantly ONLY white families as no blacks or latinos seem qualified to pass muster - except on TV) don't have the same 'sexist' dynamics influence their relationship views? Is it due to the nasty lingering odor of Asian cultural machismo? Chauvinism? But don't these characteristics exist in abundance in Europe? In the US?

This is especially interesting in light of how frequently I also hear (sometimes from the same mouths) of the 'problem' of non-Asian men - typically white - having a fetish for Asian women.

I can't seem to get any answers on those items.

I do not live in SF bay area and I am not an Asian American woman but I am a white woman who is engaged to a Korean man. We live on the East coast and I have noticed that people do assume Asian woman are more likely to be dating a white man then an Asian man but I have also noticed that people seem to always assume Asian men only date Asian women. People have commented that my fiancee and I don't look like we shold be together... whatever that means. I don't know why people make these assumptions but I think anyone should be able to date whom ever makes them happy and people should never make assumptions.

The reason why you haven't gotten any answers is because it's easier for Asian women to offer generic defensive "feel good" statements which only serve to make you look like the bitter angry man if you question them any further. Some popular ones include: "I'm colorblind. We just like each other for our personalities."

Either that or they'll use strawman arguments such as how US raised, 3rd generation men are just as sexist as the oldest generation Asians in Asia.

I mean, give me a break. Nothing is a hotter topic and commodity in Asia than Asian American men because they're already known to be less sexist. Also, they're foreign enough to be exotic but familiar enough to be safe.

If you're an Asian man that prefers to date/marry Asian women, get your ass to Asia. At least they're interested in you for who you are and there is no annoying white worship to deal with.

My problem is that I choose to remain an American and date/marry an Asian woman so it's already tough on me. Asian men must be realistic. There are not enough Asian women for all the Asian men who want them. I believe this has given Asian women an inflated ego which has resulted in them thumbing their nose at Asian men.

However, I'm willing to part with my "American-ness" rather than having to feel the need to work twice as hard as an Asian American woman.

The moment white men stop caring or paying Asian women any attention, Asian women will flood back and say "We were always with you! Go Asian men!"

Pfffft.

Actually, Tim, you and Eddy are both correct. Technically most Asian American women ARE with Asian men (55%) but only by a very very small margin.

And the room awaits some reply from the ladies...

As harmless as they may seem, the white people on this board need to stop imput their own blase attitude about interracial dating as it doesn't affect their community as much as it does a minority community. If anything, interracial dating has caused minority community more intercommunity strife and conflict than helped.

Asian guys, guys, guys. I think all Asian American guys should just get jobs here but get transferred over to Asia. That way, you'll get paid like a transferred employee rather than a local hire. With all the Asian men leaving because Asian women are too busy chasing white men, we can finally see the effect on the Asian American community.

Maybe then, Asian women will turn around, look at the shrinking Asian population, and go "damn, we're boned."

Asian men need to show that they, too, can rot the community from within. Let's take that power away from Asian women! Yay!

Godot, you won't find them in here talking about this subject as Asian women aren't losing in the situation. If the situation were reveresed, this thread would be full of Asian women and devoid of Asian men.

Eh, such is life but I do believe that karma exists. Who knows? Maybe 50 years from now, the situation will be reversed.

Even if there were some Asian women in this thread, they would use the excuses mentioned above in that 1.) love is colorblind or 2.) it's all the Asian man's fault.

This topic is like the Asian male's version of "Waiting to Exhale."

In response to the original questions, if an Asian American girl said she had a boyfriend or husband, I'd assume he was white. If an Asian American man said he had a girlfriend or wife, I'd assume she was Asian.

Doesn't matter what city they're in.

Here are some statistics but I'm not sure how old they are or if they're reliable.

http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml

I think the statistic of 35% of ALL Asian women in the US are married to white men are fairly reliable.

RP, you said something very telling - if not about the details of the situation, at least about your perception of it - you said

"...you won't find them in here talking about this subject as Asian women aren't losing in the situation. If the situation were reveresed, this thread would be full of Asian women and devoid of Asian men."

This implies (or is it that I infer) that you perceive that an Asian woman with a white guy is 'gaining' and that under similar circumstances an Asian man would be 'gaining' as well if he could get a white woman.

While on an individual basis I will readily accept that a specific white guy could be 'better' for a specific Asian woman than a specific Asian guy [To Asian Women: this is my acknowledgement that the 'a better match' argument can be valid on a case by case basis] I would be unwilling to accept the idea that A white guy is better for AN asian woman than AN asian guy (or than any other type of guy - black, latino, middle eastern, native american, etc) as a fundamental 'truism'. Your phrasing, RP seems to buy into this 'inherent gain in a white guy' theory. It seems to me that in accepting this 'theory' you ALSO accept its inherent 'opposite' - that asian guys are inherently inferior to white guys. If you think like that it is probable that most women will agree with you and you will have rigged the experiment to arrive at your desired answer.

No, I didn't mean I believed it but rather that Asian women believed this.

Also, when I used an example of how Asian women aren't losing in the situation, it's the fact that they have two large dating pools to choose from where one of them happens to be the biggest in the US, whites.

Asian men aren't so lucky. While many white women are privy to Asian men, it's nowhere near the same for Asian women/White men because there seems to be a naturaul fetish for each other.

To Asian women, we're simply replaceable. Until white men pay no interest to Asian women or Asian women specifically look for Asian men (much like how other ethnic women view their men), this problem will never be balanced.

RP, you called it a "natural fetish" (mutual interest between Asian women and white men).

Do you think it is really an inherent trait or do you think there is a socialization aspect that makes far too many Asian (American) women reject non-white men out of hand?

Who teaches them this? It would seem unlikely that Asian American cultures would do so, that would be internally self-destructive. How could it benefit Asian (American) cultures/communities to 'teach' their women to want white men? If they, Asian American cultures are doing so, are they doing it unwittingly? How?

And if white culture is teaching them this, then why wouldn't white culture teach similar thinking to other non-white women? Or if it has TRIED to do so, why has it not been nearly as effective?

I ask these questions not to put you on the spot, or 'bust your chops' but I think if we don't try to explore the root of the issue all we will do is have name calling and in-fighting between AA women and men and eventually between the AA community and other non-white communities - neither of which will help in the long run.

Guys, we aren't replying because we're tired of hearing crap like this from our own guys: "In conclusion, I believe that the whole idea of Asian women complaining about constantly getting hit on by creepy white men or men in general is caused by Asian women alone."

Please, give me a break. Stop bitching about not being able to get a date and blaming women for it, and go ASK SOME WOMEN OUT.

For the record, I'm an Asian American woman. My boyfriend is Asian American. I've dated Latino, black and white men as well (One of my long term boyfriends was Jewish), but mostly (like 80 percent of the time) I've dated Asian American men.

Though my preference is for Asian men, I haven't completely ruled out men from other backgrounds. Personality, compatablity, sense of humor blah blah blah are the top priority. I'm not saying the "love is color blind" line is a good excuse. I think it's naive of anyone to say anything is color blind cuz we sure as hell don't live in a colorblind world. Just saying that it is quite possible that it's for love, you know?

Now, when I was with a white man, I got the evil eye from Asian folk. And you know what, I give the evil eye too sometimes when I see the white man/ asian gal combo even though I was once in that combo and even though some of my friends and family members are in that combo and I know those relationships to be based on love and combatability.

Why do I do that? I guess because it's such a common pairing, and I do get an icky, sellout feeling about. It's questionable when you don't see Asian women paired with other kinds of men. I think it does have a lot to do with how we're socialized when we're growing up. It depends on what kind of population you grew up in. White is still the dominant race in this country and lots of Asians grew up being one of only a few Asian people surrounded by white people. We're still only 4 or 5 percent of the population. Maybe you grew up wanting to be white cuz you didn't want to be different. You wanted to be like evyerone else. It also comes from our parents' own racist ideas. I know my parents have a hiearchy of the races. At the top is Asian (Chinese specifically) and at the bottom are blacks and arabs. If I was going to date outside of Asian, they would prefer white. They have told me this to my face.

Now, we all seem to know Asian American women who give the "I can't date asian men because they remind me of my brother" line. And I can see why you are angry about that, becuase I'm angry about that too. What the hell is that supposed to mean? That just makes no sense. Do you hear latinos or black people or other minorities saying stuff like that? It makes me sad to hear Asian women say that. They obviously need to meet more Asian men.

I think the problem is that people (men AND women) need to stop acting like white is the prize.

To the Asian women who don't want to date Asian men, I always say: It's your loss. That's more Asian men for me.

Girlfriend!! Two swinging double snaps and a mocha twist!! Thank you for your candor. I never doubted the capacity for love - just love - to be at the core of things in some (many?) instances. I just doubted it being key to a decision to 'never' go out with any type of guy.

So, you did hit upon some underlying issues that skews the table in favor of white men. The prevalence of racial heirarchies in Asian culture certainly sets a poor foundation upon which to engage a multicultural world. The desire to 'fit in' and the perception that this 'desire' equates to being white only serves to reinforce that negative outcome.

I agree with you, we must stop thinking of 'white' as the prize and only treat it as one flavor out of many - no better; no worse.

Oh, please.

In order to speak from your high horse for such a long time without your ass getting sore; you need a saddle. Your "saddle" is to pawn off all detractors or complaints from Asian men as being "bitter" and "dateless." It’s typical but not surprising.

Six of Asian male friends complain about the situation for Asian men and how Asian women have pretty much shunned them from greener pastures. I have more shocking news for you; all of them are married or have steady girlfriends. So, why are they complaining then? They're concerned for their future children and other single Asian men who are down on their luck and demoralized.

That's how a community *should* be acting, people. When the Chinese first came to this country, we formed our own enclaves and Tongs to protect ourselves from whites. Sure, you'll have many who are just single and bitter but why is it so difficult to believe that many of these Asian guys who are complaining are simply concerned about their other brethren? Or how this is going to affect the growth and strength of our community? This gender divide is causing more problems that one can imagine. For instance, I know many Asian men that refuse to stick up for Asian women for this reason alone. They view this situation as a betrayal of the utmost degree and their own rational for not supporting Asian women is thus deemed warranted.

Has anyone ever even contemplated the idea that this issue is extremely demoralizing to the point where they're afraid of asking Asian women out because it's perceived that they don't date Asian men? Hrm. Pull your head out of your ass, learn to rotate your brain, and view all aspects of the situation before you come to a simplistic conclusion befitting a shit-chucking orangutan.

Rice Patty, you and your other friends who think this way are partly responsible for this gender divide. Yes, I've contemplated that it's demoralizing. And yes, I know all about how Asian men are portrayed in the media and this society. I have male Asian friends too. Now, what have you and your friends done to stop blaming women?

No doubt it's contributing to the gender divide and causing more strife but while it's childish to say such, I will anyway.

"You started it."

Do you honestly think this animosity and distrust towards Asian women would have even existed if Asian women didn't marry 50% out of their race? Hrm? Every action will have an equal and opposite reaction.

While we do acknowledge that some Asian men are lashing out in unreasonable ways, at least we acknowledged a problem. The first step is to always identify and acknowledge the problem before you can solve it.

The problem is, Asian women haven't even acknowledged it or even care about the effect it's having on Asian men. They don't state that there is something "off." So, I believe Asian men are at least ahead in this respect.

Personally, I only help other Asian men in every aspect whenever I can. That goes for employement, relationships, and social assistance. Until Asian women are more willing to support Asian men and evidence is plentiful, I believe their main form of assistance should come from white men.

If it's wrong, it's wrong but that's the way I feel. I'm not going to lie about it.

Whoops. Forgot to put my handle on that last post.

"We are all a product of our environment and are influenced by it."

Absloutely

"What does our society tell us about AAW and AAM? What images does it portray? What themes does it reinforced on a daily basis? If you identify those then it will be easier to understand this situation."

Hollywood and the media tell me that they would rather hire foreign whites from the UK and USA for roles in TV and movies over Asian Americans particularly Asian American men. They also tell me that they are very racist. When whites are displaced by foreigners as in computer science there is a hue and cry, but foreign whites displace Americans white, Asian or otherwise in Hollywood, no one gives a damn!!

"Through tv, radio, music, movies, magazines advertisements etc. Our society teaches that White men and women are beautiful and desirable,"

Very clear. Recruitment of foreign whites from the UK and USA in Hollywood is at an all time high according to the Washington Examiner. If they cannot get a white American they go for a foreign white and give him or her American accent. Not very different from the Yellowface or black face shows of yesteryears.

"That Black men are lazy, criminals. Black women are overly sexual and aggressive."

Although most rapes are committed by white men.

"That Latino men are stupid, foreign, gangsters. That Latino women are overly sexual, foreign, maids."

In other countries Filipinas get the maid stereotype.

"That Asian women are overly sexual, foreign, sell outs. That Asian men are ugly, weak and foreign."

True. More foreign than the white girls they are recruiting from England.

No wonder we Asian American women ONLY dating white men. And Rebbecca don't give me this personality, interest, outlook on life, sense of humor BS. If that was the case why don't Asian American Women date high percentages of other types of men????? why is it they ONLY white men if they do date outside their race????? Even in areas with high numbers of minorities like CA,NY. Don't be so naive. We are all influenced by the messages of our society. Take a look around its everywhere...."

I think the fastest growing group of couples in this country is the Black Male/Asian female couple. And they are being increasingly portrayed in the tv shows partly because Asian women/white men couples will not sell to the majority of racist white women.

Is n't it possible that the problem is not with Asian women but with white women being racist and would not date non-white men? Why would they? They enjoy the privilege of being white.

Second, why aren't the Asian men competing with white men regarding mail order brides? Fasicnating here in Singapore, Chinese men will complain about Filipina women dating white men, but themselves think that it is beneath their dignity to date Filipina women, most of whom are maids. So, the Asian men have to accept part of the blame. Go abroad and find yourselves wives...means a more non-white America..and it would undermine the racist America you all are complaining about...it would also serve the white men right.

Another point. In Hawaii there is a lot more mixture, particularly AM/WF, because Asians dont worship whites and they are seen as equals. So, majority is not the issue. Here in Singapore, Asians are a majority but worship whites..one TV program even brazenly showed the virtues of a smooth white skin on June 15, 2007..hence most white women dont date white men. It depends on how you treat the cat. If you treat the cat like a human, it would jump on the dining table when you are having dinner. If you treat the cat as a cat, it would behave like a cat.

Glad to know that there is at least one non-racist white female...perhaps four or five..because the others have not disowned her!!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20046345,00.html

"You started it"? Wow, you're right, Rice Patty. That is very unreasonable.

For the record I never argued that love is colorblind, as my comment got skewed, I said that there are additional factors that influence relationships. Also, while an obvious statement, it bears remembering: not all Asian Americans are alike. The guy that works in finance is not as likely to go for the punk girl (and vice versa). The strong, successful woman has fewer options open to her--of any ethnicity.

I've only been picked-up on by one Asian American guy in my life, and he said, "I like your dress." (A bad line, no matter how you cut it.) Now, I don't have a hunchback or a pegleg, so what gives? I have a hard time believing that this is because Asian American women have inherited some Eve-like insult to humankind for all eternity, as some commenters seem to suggest.

Wow!! It's getting hot in here! Let's not make it personal. A couple of good points and I got some feedback on my questions. Thanks and a special thank you to Rebecca and girlfriend for stepping into the fray.

I think a major shift would occur IF asian men were 'shown' their 'value'. I think asian men should start dating black and latino women. A 'common' comment is that black women are 'under-served' by a lack of eligible black men so there are 'openings' (Stay out of the gutter!!!). Asian men are noted for their family focus which should be a welcome trait. If asian men start dating 'other' women, then maybe asian women won't feel so 'cocky' (is that possible?) about knowing that when they 'return' from their white guy exploratory trek that asian men will be still there.

A similar trend might occur amongst black men who upon seeing their 'sure thing' not so sure might stop going after white women (and now theoretically asians) and go after black women more (they already 'in' marry at better than 90%). Now this might further irritate white women who would find that the one market that they thought was locked up is not so closed as thought. Maybe they too will pursue asian men not wanting black women to have 'all the fun'. If that happens it will further spur asian women to go after them AND make white men gop defend their womenfolk and when the music stops....everyone is where they're supposed to be....OR people look a lot more alike than they do now and they get along better.

To paraphrase: "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've gotr til its gone".

Another potential positive is that asian men might become less 'hesitant' about dealing with women of color (other than asian) and asian women, once they see asian men doing 'well' with other people of color maybe they will be a bit more inclusive (expansive?) about who they date and befriend.

See, all types of positive outcomes!

Rob, interesting point about discrimination by chinese against filipina women while simultaneously griping about being discriminated against. Pots calling kettles - but certainly not calling them 'black'.

And Rebecca do you actually like getting 'picked up' and if so what lines work best? just in case the opportunity presents itself :-)

Were all the other guys white? Does this happen often or rarely? (Being hit upon). If rarely, then we'll need a new thread.

I said it was childish, not that it was unfair to say "you started it." It is fair; absolutely fair.

Do you honestly think this gender divide would even be in place if it wasn't for Asian women who "started it?" No one is trying to control you. We're wondering why you can't control yourselves. Do whatever the hell you want to to but Asian women consistently fail to grasp that they don't understand the repercussions. Like I said, repeatedly, is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When 50% of Asian American born women are marrying white men (let's not sugarcoat it with non-Asian men because it's honestly not.), does one honestly think there isn't going to be some type of reaction from Asian men or society in general?

Simply put, Asian women are selfish. They consistently put their own issues and desires over anything else while it seems other ethnic women are more privy when it comes to standing by their own men.

Like the Columbia University speed-dating research shows, almost all women from a racial demographic support interracial dating but *prefer* their race first but with Asian women, there is no preference. Sometimes, Asian mothers actually persuade Asian women to marry white men.

Let's review, shall we?

1.) It's not difficult for Asian men to encounter Asian women who refuse to date Asian men. Almost every Asian male knows one whereas my other friends don't know or haven't heard of a women from their race say the same.

2.) It's very easy to backtrack and offer examples of Asian women dissing Asian men in everything from real life experiences or media. However, it's difficult to say the same for non-Asian women.

3.) Non-Asian ethnic women feel a kinship towards their own men because their experiences are the same. This even applies to African American women who are the most assimilated race in America. They don't even have a unique language or culture like Asians and Latinos. (Yes, there are many cultures for Asians and Latinos but you get the idea.)

4.) If you ever notice when Asian women talk about this subject, they'll always use a personal identifier. (Me, I, My, etc.) (It's MY life. Don't tell ME what to do, I want to do this.) There is never any mention of sympathy or acknowledgment of Asian men and their feelings because, in their eyes, as long as they're happy, everyone can take a long walk off a short cliff.

5.) I've dated other ethnic women (black and Latin) and they've all stated that they've been searching for a great guy who's from their background but after months or even years of not being able to find one, they relented. They also hoped I wasn't offended but I told them it was on the contrary. The sheer desire and "loyalty" to their own men was extremely admirable.

While there are problems on the Asian male side, I'm sick and tired of Asian women playing the "babe in the woods" routine and acting as if they're the victim of some white guy with yellow fever. Quit your whining. If Asian women as a whole didn't throw themselves or weren't privy to dating white men, they most likely wouldn't be constantly hovering over you, would they? The fact of the matter is that white men are the gods of this country. At least have the courage and strength to admit that you like the attention of these "gods" and would flee a sinking ship like rats to join them. The moment they get bored of you, you swim back and say "We Asian girls always supported you Asian men! You guys rock!" while scanning around for better oppertunities.

Do you honestly blame angry Asian guys? Or should you be blaming the situation that created them?

Look guys, you want to lessen racism in this country or not? If you do, the only way you can do it is make whites a minority in this country. The white men are doing it by procreating with Asian women including making very big contribution to this end by getting mail order brides from abroad. Find yourselves wives in Asian countries, and we will hasten the day when whites become a minority in this country and racism will diminish.

RP, I can understand your passion on the issue, but it does seem a bit harsh. I agree with your closing points on the "yellow fever" thing and addressing the "situation" that created this problem. But I believe the 'situation' is much deeper than 'asian women not wanting to date asina men'.

I think one key issue is how it became accepted in the Asian American community that 'white' is the most desireable thing to 'be'. While I acknowledge the dominance of whites in this society, that doesn't make me want to 'be' white. It makes me want to work more aggressively to shift the balance of power and diminish that dominance. Asians do not seem to have embraced that idea or ethos as firmly as other minorities in the US. Blacks in the US are almost defined by their oppositional stance to whites. As a general rule, blacks do not seem to 'want ' to be 'white'. "Acceptance" (or maybe better said as 'absorbtion') is not the prime objective - acknowledgement and respect seem to be the primary motivators. Sometimes the tactics employed on the ground' are not the best, but they do seek to maintain their identity - conflicted as that may be. RP you hit upon this with respect to (wrt) loyalty and black women. By the way, I disagree with the use of the term 'assimilated' wrt african americans. African americans are as american as any white american and more american than many white americans. Their presence here goes back as far as any and shaped this nation.

Asian Americans seem to operate differently. Many Asian Americans seem to want to 'be' white - or more accurately 'accepted' by whites in a "See! We are just like you!" manner, but not one that looks to place whites on an even level with all others, but to move themselves up to a pedestal similar to how they see whites. (Why do I speak in the 3rd person? Because I do not subscribe to this philosophy). It is reflected in the words we use - when an asian says 'American' he or she typically means 'WHITE American'. So in the quest to assimilate, to be a part of the norm - much more an objective of those with a living memory of 'some other place' either directly or from family - and to the extent that one allows only whites to be part of that 'norm' you remove or distance yourself from things that prevent your 'normalization' - i.e. Asian American men and those damn 'funny' names. Women - always seen as less threatening than men - have had greater 'mobility' in this 'dissolving in' process due to stereotypes and some cultural habits have tended to reinforce some of those stereotypes.

Sakamoto, I think your theroy falls short. The basis of racism is NOT in the absolutes of skin color, it is in the presupposition of inherent superiorty of one group over another due to a physical characteristic that has nothing to do with intelligence, character or any other real metric of a human being's potential. Subsequently the 'mixing' of whites with others (Asians or more) won't reduce whites to minority status and thus end racism, it will simply shift the complexion of whites and create a new 'white' people who hopefully will do a better job of preparing sushi. But they'll be just as 'white' in all its negative sense.

So what about the other 30 - 35% of the population? The NOT white people. Don't they count? What American music do you listen to that does not beg, borrow or outright steal from black american music forms? Have you ever eaten an egg roll? Not in China you haven't. Had fajitas? Not in Mexico you haven't. So the fingerprints of minorities are all over the place.

Bitter diatribes against this 'not dating asian men' thing probably won't work to reverse that (why would you want to go somewhere and get 'yelled' at?). But if there is a committed effort even an individual basis to shift our thinking and how we present information, there is a chance to shift the outcome. I strongly suggest that the first shift come in language. Fully recognizing the impact of 'hyphenated' Americanism (pun intended) I, in many instances (after a political cost/benefit analysis) have stopped using a hyphenated designation of myself. I am an American. That's it. No more or less than Baxter Billingsly III of the Hamptons or Vishnu Patel of Edison, NJ, Yumi Tanaka of Portland or Jamaal Johnson of Chicago.

But most importantly, don't continue walking into the mental trap that equates 'American' with 'white' - there is no such cultural equation and when you make such a currency exchange you will cheat yourself.

White people are not all powerful; nor are they all evil. If someone has a fetish there is probably someone else who supports that fetish (sadists can't prosper without masochists). If you have such a fetish recognize it and acknowledge it, don't blame somebody else for 'pushing' you into your fetish. So asian women, if your 'fetish' is 'common objectives' and sense of humor and similar outlook, then accept that those traits come in many colors INCLUDING Asian men AND they are also missiing in many colors INCLUDING white men. Don't ASSUME them to be specific to one group. You don't like it when assumptions are made about you (submissive, docile, easy) - neither do others. And DON'T evaluate guys based on their paycheck capacity and act snotty - it makes you look cheap and only serves to reinforce negative stereotypes. Call your sisters out on it.

Asian men go get that 'other' girl who is standing at the club waitign hoping to dance. She might be pleasantly surprised by your interest and demonstratively appreciative (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

Also don't be a chauvinistic dickhead - NOBODY wants that. You end up p***y-less. And I'm not talking about pocket change here.

"Subsequently the 'mixing' of whites with others (Asians or more) won't reduce whites to minority status and thus end racism, it will simply shift the complexion of whites and create a new 'white' people who hopefully will do a better job of preparing sushi. But they'll be just as 'white' in all its negative sense."

No. You dont understand what I said. Never advocated mixing with whites. I suggested going to Asia to bring Asian brides and compete with the whites for these Asian brides. If four million African American women married four million men from Africa or the Caribbean instead of complaining about black men being taken by white women or being in prison, and if the one and a half million Asian American men marry Asian women from Asia, that means nearly six million more non- white citizens (if they hopefully become one)in this country..which means whites will become a minority sooner rather than later and minorities will have less power as we have already seen.

Thaks for clarifying Sakamoto. YOur approach is to simply increase the numbers of 'minorities' until we are no longer minorities. Sort of an 'immigrate' our way out of the position of disadvantage. This would have some logistical challenges (getting to 'there' to bring mates back to 'here' but the succcess of the plan does depend upon the various minority groups recognizing that their fates or prospects are linked. They would have to work together in order to have impact. Not a bad outcome.

Oh, please.

That idea is just beyond stupid and makes no sense at all.

Now, back to reality. I'll be honest with you, I used to grumble about this problem. Actually, I still do from time to time but it's rare. Why? I'll tell you in a minute.

I've noticed that Asian men are pretty much on their own and Asian women don't give a flying shit about us. I want to establish that first.

I've accepted this. Everywhere I go, Asian women blame Asian men for the problem. As you can see from the other female posters in this thread, it's true. It's either all our fault or they tend to ignore it completely because, frankly, it doesn't affect or hurt them. Not only is it our fault, we have to do more on our end while they don't have to do squat by meeting us halfway.

That reminds me of the Creedence Clearwater Revival song "Senator's Son" when they "ask how much should we give" and they reply "more, more, more." Anyway, I digress.

The personal is political, folks. Let's not beat around the bush; until someone else is losing, a particular subject becomes more or less important depending on who's being affected the most.

Think it's ok to racially profile Arabs on airplanes? Whites sure do. Why? It's because their own rights aren't being violated.

Think it's ok for blacks to get followed around in the store? Asians sure do. Why? It's because they're not the ones being stereotyped as criminals.

So, it's fine to say that Asian women don't care. Why should they? They're not losing out on the exchange. Had it been the opposite situation where Asian men were being chased left and right by white women and everyone ignored Asian women because they're ugly, you'd hear alot of complaining from Asian women and Asian men would be the ones saying "you don't own me."

Asian women need to shut up. Honestly. You'd do all the kicking and screaming if you were the ones losing and you know I'm 100% true. Get off your high horse because you know it's true.

Asian guys, you can't blame them. They hold all the cards while you hold a lousy hand. The only thing I suggest you do is fold, pick yourself up, and move to another table.

I'm being serious. Talking to Asian women about this topic because it's like talking to a brick wall. Hell, I've met many white, Latin, and black women that are so responsive and supportive to how Asian men are heartbroken over this issue.

Why repay your best efforts to a demographic that could give a shit whether or not you have a happy life? I wouldn't. Why would I? I give support and happiness to someone that gave or will return it to me.

This is why I encourage Asian men to date outside their race. This is where my personal story comes into play. I used to be angry about it until I bumped into a gay white friend of mine that took care of me. I mean, he and his friends told me the in's and out's on what to do and how to act. In fact, they had many straight female friends. Picture me as a guy being helped by the cast of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. They dressed me up, helped me with social graces, and cleaned up my flat.

It wasn't 2 weeks later when women of all colors started picking up on this and taking notice.

My honest question is this: If I have to work hard to appeal to women of all races, why would I date an Asian woman if I can date a non-Asian one? You give us shit and then when you see we get attention from non-Asian women, you suddenly think that we're acceptable now?

Suffice to say, I've convinced most of my young male relatives to chew up this mentality. I'm not afraid to admit that it's the shallow approach but maybe it's the only way for Asian women to stop taking us for granted. Asian men need to show them we're not going to wait around for them forever as a second class date.

Much to the anger of Asian women who hear me saying this, I've noticed that if every Asian guy does his part to spread the message, maybe Asian women will learn in a few years that Asian men can be better than any other type of men out there but they were too busy dicking around and taking us for granted.

3 of my cousins are all very good looking Asian guys. 2 are with white women and another is with a Latina. I have many white female friends that said they didn't date Asian guys not because they didn't like them but because they felt Asian guys didn't find them attractive since they're too busy chasing Asian girls.

I replied that this isn't the case but don't think white girls are interested in them. So, I told these white girls to start opening flirting with Asian guys. Low and behold, 2 of them are dating Korean guys.

In short, Asian guys....

look elsewhere. We've never been seriously wanted and that's the biggest turnoff ever.

MOVE.

ON.

"This would have some logistical challenges (getting to 'there' to bring mates back to 'here' but the succcess of the plan does depend upon the various minority groups recognizing that their fates or prospects are linked."

Compete with white men for mail order brides. One of the biggest problems is inter-Asian prejudice. For example, in Singapore, many Chinese man consider it below their status to marry someone from the Philippines, but the white man does not...this needs to change. Asian American men along with African American women have the power to change the country's demography quickly and reduce racism, and I am afraid many dont even know it. Instead they sit about the opposite sex of their race being taken by whites.

"look elsewhere. We've never been seriously wanted and that's the biggest turnoff ever."

Look to the Philippines. Plenty of those women want to come to the US. Why restrict yourselves to Americans. Are Asian women so below status?

to Sakamoto and Date Out - what you are suggesting is what I proposed long ago in this thread. Thanks for the endorsement. The 'logistics' will have to be worked out, but I see nothing inherently wrong with Asian men "going where they are wanted" and the
same thing for Black women, although the Black male 'out marriage' rate is nowhere near the Asian women out marriage rate.

There is the issue that in many instances, even those 'mail order brides' are still looking for white men.

"There is the issue that in many instances, even those 'mail order brides' are still looking for white men."

Having lived in Singapore and seeing how the Chinese men treated the Filipinas, maid or otherwise, I can understand the feeling. The Filipina women have not been treated well by other Asians..so that may be part of the reason as to why they go for white men.

Well, I don't want to date Asian women from Asia because I'm an American and they won't understand my way of life and how we do things here.

Are you running some mail order bride business or something? Get off it.

I do agree with "Date Out" and Patty for the most part and believe that the whole interracial dating issue doesn't even register on the minds of most Asian women in America.

In fact, they're still going out of their way to date white men because of "cool" it seems to portray how color doesn't matter in this day in age.

This brings me to the topic that only stupid minorities believe in the white man's buzzwords of assimilation and colorblind.

I was with some friends and the whole group was filled with Asian men and women to which one of the Asian women said that all the Asian women were in love with the token white guy.

Give me a break. As if white guys are so special. Asian women, they think they're superior because you make them so.

Did you men know that Asian American women ages 18-24 have the highest rate of suicide in the US for that age group?

Oh, sorry, I meant 15-24. I'm sure you all have read this, but here it is for reference:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html

Yes, I'm aware.

What has that got to do with anything about this topic? Are you going to go the route of "why are we worrying about this problem when we should be worrying about this instead?"

"Well, I don't want to date Asian women from Asia because I'm an American and they won't understand my way of life and how we do things here.

Are you running some mail order bride business or something? Get off it."

I wont get off it. Then stop complaining about white men taking Asian women.

"I do agree with "Date Out" and Patty for the most part and believe that the whole interracial dating issue doesn't even register on the minds of most Asian women in America.

In fact, they're still going out of their way to date white men because of "cool" it seems to portray how color doesn't matter in this day in age."

Just like you wont date Asian women from Asia it is their preference.

"This brings me to the topic that only stupid minorities believe in the white man's buzzwords of assimilation and colorblind."

Just like you dont believe in dating Asian women from Asia.

"I was with some friends and the whole group was filled with Asian men and women to which one of the Asian women said that all the Asian women were in love with the token white guy.

Give me a break. As if white guys are so special. Asian women, they think they're superior because you make them so."

Just like you think you are superior and not compatible with Asians. You sow what you reap.

Hey Ken:

Just like it is your preference not to date Asian women from Asia, it is our preference not to date Asian American men. Any questions?

Rebecca, actually I was quite aware. I trust you are not suggesting that Asian men are the cause of this? I suppose you could be, but then given that the out-dating/marriage issue has been going on for some time, it would seem that even that respite has not provided true relief. Maybe they are conflicted in terms of identity. It seems to me that that has to be a stressful issue for adoptees, and the overwhelming majority of adoptees are females.

Sakamoto, thanks for pointing out a few things there...I might not have been as harsh, but Ken, you had a couple of non sequiters in there.

I suppose this comes down to this for me; it is not so muich about passing judgement as about understanding why.
Why so often given that other women of color do not do the same.
Why only white men given the argument presented is 'colorblind love'.
Why so strident ("I would never date an Asian man!")?
And here is a 'how' - How is it that Asian women can grow up to be informed/transformed by life in the US to arrive at a more egalitarian 'place' in terms of gender relations but their brothers growing up in the same household don't get this same education\socialization?

We have things here that just don't seem to fit.

Hey Julie -

This is exactly what will happen. I have already spoke to enough pissed off Asian American men to understand this will have far greater social impact within the Asian American community.

My brother is a good example. My brother is tall and athletic. He currently lives in NYC. He has told me Asian women are the worst there with their dissing of Asian men. He even tried to date some Asian women after growing up in an all white community and basically dated mostly white girls. Well, the last time I spoke to him he told me he has given up on Asian women with their bad attitudes and is currently dating a white girl.

I do agree with some of the other Asian guys' point of view. You guys need to open your eyes and look to women from other races. There are a ton of black women who would love to date Asian men. How do I know this? Cause many of them told me so. I have dated Latinas and the first thing I heard from these women is they think Asian men only date Asian women and if they do date interracially, they only date white girls. This has to change. Asian men need to go out there and date women from other races.

I say forget Asian women. They seem to be pretty happy with their dorky ugly white boyfriends/husbands, even the ones that look like they crawled out of sewers somewhere.

"I have dated Latinas and the first thing I heard from these women is they think Asian men only date Asian women and if they do date interracially, they only date white girls."

At least one person, Ken, wants to date only Asian American women, not Asian women from other parts of the world. Look, you dont need mail order brides. Plenty of foreign students from Asia at US universities. Try dating them before the white man grabs them which I am sure they are waiting to do. Tons of attractive women from Japan, Korea and Singapore at US universities particularly in the west coast. Why do you bother with people like Julie Chen?

Sakomoto - I agree with you. I do want to clarify in my last post that FORGET SELL OUT BITCHES vs. all Asian women. Asian men should date Asian women who actually care about them.

We need to develop better radar system to weed out those sell out bitches quickly. If I talk to an Asian women who is one of those, I would distant myself from that SOW immediately and not associate with these women at all. I tell my wife the same thing cause their presence is just a freaking insult to everything I believe in. When these bitches get into racial trouble, I hope the entire Asian American community turn their backs on these bitches so they can go cry to white men for help. Really, I hope the entire community disassociate with these women completely and let them go swim in the white men's world.

If you are an Asian man and you run into one of these women, run as far from her as you can and recommend all of your friends do the same. If you are an Asian women who actually care about Asian American issues, run from these women too cause they are basically living insult to our identity and culture with their white worshiping ways.

Wow, there’s a whole host of implying but very little listening in this thread. This is primarily directed towards “Sakamoto” and “Julie Chen.”

First, to Sakamoto, I don’t have any problems dating and marrying a woman from Asia. In fact, the main reason why I am primarily interested in Asian women is because of cultural reasons so it stands to reason why foreign Asian women would actually be more appealing to me than native born Asians who have a much higher chance of not carrying on their culture. While I’ve dated non-Asian women who were sensitive to these desires and cater to them, none of them really understood these cultural practices. This is why I’m also not interested in completely whitewashed Asian American girls as they can’t provide this for me and my future children either. Not like it matters as the ones that are the most whitewashed are always the ones that hate Asian men.

I’m trying to strike a happy medium in an Asian American girl who isn’t whitewashed and understands our cultural practices but also understands American mannerisms and traditions. In essence, I’m trying to find a girl that can blend both areas. It’s my personality and I wish to find someone who has the same.

Foreign women can’t provide that. I’m not shutting them down because of racial or superiority reasons like you claim. I’ll give you a personal example. I was once posted at a temporary position by my firm in Shanghai and I fast became friends with an absolutely stunning woman there. She was perfect in every way except some of her mannerisms were uniquly Asian that I couldn’t wrap my head around. For example, we were very obviously attracted to each other, personality and physically, but she harbored that inferiority complex where Asian women are treated secondary to men. She wouldn’t look me in the eye, wouldn’t argue with me (I actually tested her by saying something that was blatantly incorrect), would walk behind me rather than by my side, or would insist she do all the cooking and cleaning while also holding a full time job. I want a girl that can stick up for herself. That’s just one of many reasons why our pairing would be awkward. While many men would love a woman like this, I don’t. A marriage should be about equals and she didn’t treat herself as one. I’ve met several beautiful native Korean girls who followed this example as well.

So, no, it’s not about me feeling superior to them.

Second, to Julie Chen, that’s your choice. However, I wish society would stop sugarcoating the word “prejudice” by using the word “preference.” It seems that people only use that word because they’re too much of a chicken to declare an absolute answer. It’s as wishy-washy as “maybe, perhaps, I think, somewhat.” You’re a weak-minded simpleton who is afraid of declaring your intentions and choose to meander on the sidelines to see how the game plays out before you make a decision.

In essence, you’re hoping that by using the word “preference” to cover up your racial prejudice against Asian men, it will buy you some brownie points when it comes to social interaction. That’s essentially what racial preference is. If you prefer a certain race, that means you have a prejudice against other races. Sorry, I’m not buying it and neither do Asian men or people in general, for that matter, who are willing to call bullshit.

You’re just like many people who claim themselves agnostic for fear of declaring themselves atheist just in case God really does exist. If someone does call you on your bullshit racist selections, you can also backtrack and spout “Oh, I didn’t say all Asian men. I would date one if he was nice.” In your mind, if you flat out say you don’t date Asian men and society calls you on your racism, you can’t backtrack. Right now in North America, it’s ok to rail against Asian men so this is the approach you take.

This is moot anyway because, as I said to Sakamoto, I don’t wish to date a foreign Asian woman because it’s based on personality which is equitable to compatibility. Yours, on the other hand, is based around racial prejudice, I mean, preference. You’re making it sound as simple and objective as choosing a pizza topping.

Ken, you had not clarified your reasons for not looking for Asian women as mates. Your concerns are valid but you should be willing to admit that it is not a foregone conclusion that ALL women raised in Asia would act in the way you described. That would be as erroneous as assuming that ALL Asian men are sexist, arrogant and assholic - which we know to not be the case.

On another note, thank you for your candor with regard to the use of 'preference' in lieu of 'prejudice'. If a person would dismiss out-of-hand, any and all potential suitors due to an 'accident of birth' (being born an Asian, Latino or Black male for example) then that is a prejudice. A 'preference' might be for a mate in the legal profession for example - he or she can choose to be there or not - and you can choose to date him/her or not.

Would you consider your selection criteria 'preferences' or 'prejudices'?

Eddy - you are right. Ken obviously does not have enough experience with women in Asia.

It is lame to assume all women in Asia are certain way. If anything, there are PLENTY of strong Asian women in Asia. If you meet a white girl who is submissive (cause I have), does this mean all the women in the USA is that way? It is stupid to make those assumptions. Besides, there are some beautiful women in Asia that would put most girls here to shame as far as beauty and class.

The problem with this country since the day we are born, we are conditioned to think "white is right" or "white is ideal" from books, films, movies, magazines, schools and everything in-between. Images of white standard of beauty is everything whether that's true or not. The same image is being spread to the rest of the world via Hollywood, the biggest white propaganda machine out there on earth. Hollywood would rather hire bunch of white foreign actors from UK or Australia than hire Asian Americans who are born and raised in the USA. Can their agenda be any more obvious? You don't need to go far to see what they are trying to do. Is it any surprise just about all the romantic lead roles are white men in Hollywood movies while most minority men are reduced to caricatures or sidekicks for white people's amusement? White people have created some kind of racial hierarchy to benefit them while at the same time, to put down the minority men in "their" place. Some of us have been brainwashed and conditioned since birth to believe this. Some of us who are mentally strong can see things for what it is and recognize it. Some of us with weaker mentality took the easy route out and submit to the white men. It is the easier path and with less resistance. Since white men have certain fetishes for Asian women due to various stereotypes, they have created images of Asian women being exotic sexual beings. People always say if you can't change the environment, but you can always change yourself and the way you are thinking. Unfortunately, some of us would rather buy into the images white media has been selling for years. As a result, some Asians in turn find it easier to stereotype other Asians (especially Asian men) in a negative way since white men have been doing to many years. After all, if you align with the majority they surely will accept you and welcome you into their little klan right? Well, I am pretty sure that's how some of these Asian women think. I just wish they could out and say it outright vs. these stupid excuses like "oh he is like my brother" or "it is my preference" or "I don't know why I prefer white and nothing else, cause I just do" or some other crap.

Women of all races in this country have been conditioned to think white men as the ideal mate due to all reasons I already covered. They also been conditioned to believe all Asian men are not ideal due to various stereotypes with most of them being negative. I suspect most of these white-washed sellout Asian girls never even dated an Asian guy in their entire life. Because these girls look Asian, people think they are expert on Asian men when in reality they have no clue and the only men they probably have experiences with are their fathers and brothers. My personal experience is once a girl dated an Asian men, they always are far more open to the next Asian guy. Since now, they have been conditioned to consider Asian men as potential mates vs. someone who would never be in interested in them and only in Asian women. I have been girl's first Asian experience quite a few times and it always been that way. Some of my EXs are always more open to date other Asian men after me. Before that, most of them never thought of dating an Asian guy until I asked them out. Since media and everything in this country will never give people the image of an Asian man as just a man like anyone else, it really is up to individual man to be proactive and create his own social image. Do Asian men (or most minority men for that matter) have it harder because white media stacked everything against us, yeah you bet but it can also be overcome if you work at it.

The reason why I mentioned the high rates of depression and suicide among young Asian American women is not to say that men are to blame (aside from the average ways that a patriarchy oppresses women), but that maybe some women are preoccupied with things other than satisfying your sense of manliness.

Don't get me wrong. The masculinity of Asian American men is an important issue. Media portrayals are horrible, racist, etc. And sure, there are women whose dating practices are whack. But what really chafes my hide are the broad, daresay stereotyping, truly hateful comments bandied about regarding a very large group of people (Asian American women), that pretend to have the handle on someone else's subjectivity, to have the hearts and minds of women dialed.

Could high rates of depression mean that they don't all "think that they're superior" (to quote Ken)? MAYBE, just maybe, women don't like seeing fellow women called "bitches" (to quote AV). Or seeing that their entire ethnic gender category somehow "started it" (Rice Patty), or that our perceptions are "socially ignorant" (Ken), or that we need to just "shut up" (Date out).

Or maybe women are just thinking about other things. Maybe they're having a hard time getting dates, period--much less having the luxury to chose.

Or, if you want to talk about media representation here, maybe they think their bodies are ugly because they don't wear a D-cup or look like crap in a bikini. Well, you don't even have to go as far as media representation, but the guy you've heard crowing over having 'banged on some chick' or scoring the girl with big tits. That's a real bummer to have to hear, and you don't even have to go to the proverbial locker room to hear it.

Maybe they're just bummed out about living up to their parents high expectations and the men in our society getting treated better. (As Ed points out, adoptees are overwhelmingly girls--the implication being that they're more disposable.)

Who can say, really, what the many saddened young women are thinking, or in what weird ways they may or may not rebel against the social constraints, or be unable to cope and decide they're better off dead.

But perhaps we can leave room for the notion that making men feel like men's men is not at the top of a woman's list.

On another note,

Says Rob: "Demoralization. I've frequently heard from Asian women who are dating white men that Asian men don't hit or flirt with them; that they're too shy. Be that as it may, it's true. ... To add to that, there are many Asian men who are shy but have also become extremely demoralized by this fact in seeing so many Asian women with non-Asian men. They start to feel as if Asian women have abandoned them, don't love them, or that Asian women don't find them attractive."

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If someone isn't flirted with, the assumption goes that they aren't desired. Additionally, being the male-centric society that it is, women aren't 'supposed' to be the ones who make the first move.

In not being flirted with by Asian American men, I've always just assumed it was because they didn't find me desirable. And empirically I don't think that's an out of line conclusion. Seriously, if I were to second guess that and think to myself, "That guy must not be flirting with me not because they don't like me, but because they're shy," do you know what kind of idiot I would be?

Oh, I fully acknowledge that not all Asian women act like that. It was just one example I chose to give you. There are many other reasons too; many of them are on my side such as being too lazy to learn the language.

I do have to echo what you guys are saying, as sad as it is for me to say, I know many great Asian American guys that "fled" America to Asia in order to feel loved and actually wanted. Three are in Taiwan and one is in Korea.

From what an American born Asian female friend said to me, Asian American guys are the hottest thing in Asia because they're foreign enough to be "exotic" but familiar enough to be "safe." My experiences reflect what she's been saying so I would actually encourage many Asian American men to go back to Asia since Asian American women seem to thumb their noses at us because they're desired by whites.

Truth be told, this woman's personality and beauty more than makes up for the differences I was talking about. If I was posted in Shanghai, the pleasure would be all mine if she would marry me.

That being said, I do have to add that being "colorblind" has allowed white society to basically tell minorities to forsake their own demographic to be absorb American, I mean, white values.

AV: A Brilliant piece that even a child can understand. I could not have said it better. However, I have some comments.

"Eddy - you are right. Ken obviously does not have enough experience with women in Asia."

He should try the Chinese women in Singapore, as westernized as it gets. Perhaps more westernized than the American born Asians although some have the same white bias..

"It is lame to assume all women in Asia are certain way. If anything, there are PLENTY of strong Asian women in Asia. If you meet a white girl who is submissive (cause I have), does this mean all the women in the USA is that way? It is stupid to make those assumptions. Besides, there are some beautiful women in Asia that would put most girls here to shame as far as beauty and class."

Indeed!!

"The problem with this country since the day we are born, we are conditioned to think "white is right" or "white is ideal" from books, films, movies, magazines, schools and everything in-between. Images of white standard of beauty is everything whether that's true or not. The same image is being spread to the rest of the world via Hollywood, the biggest white propaganda machine out there on earth. Hollywood would rather hire bunch of white foreign actors from UK or Australia than hire Asian Americans who are born and raised in the USA. Can their agenda be any more obvious?"

I have responded to this before in the Aishwarya Rai blog. But here it is once again. "May be if the Indian female actors continue using skin whiteners, it may just fool them enough to get them into Hollywood..

http://www.littleindia.com/news/134/ARTICLE/1828/2007-08-18.html

the exceptions being Neha Dupia, Preity Zinta and the Kapoor Sisters. Even the racist Rimi Sen is not white enough..perhaps she can get her director Mr. Shetty to whiten her skin enough and make her pretty enough to get her into Hollywood. Right now she is a tad too dark and ugly for Hollywood.

Hollywood is mostly interested in white people or white looking people. Every year approximately 5,000-7,000 H1Bs are allocated to white actors from UK and Australia and some from Canada. Yet no one hears the racist anti-immigration groups such as FAIR and CIS complain about them displacing Americans white or otherwise. In particular Asian Americans have very few opportunities in Hollywood, and yet they import white foreigners with accents and dub the American accent to make them look American eg. Poppy Montgomerry of Without a Trace who is from Australia and Melaney Linskey of Two and a Half Men who is from New Zealand. Unemployment among aspiring American actors is very high. I found at least four attractive women all of them white, living on the streets of Hollywood looking for a break and being chased away by business owners. I dont see many homeless IT people. Yet, to listen to these racist anti-immigration groups, it would seem as though the American IT people are living on the streets due to cheaper (not bright according to these groups, but cheaper professionals from India and China. Racism, pure and simple."

Also look at this worship of white women by Indian actors of Bollywood. If you want to know what is said, please ask any Indian who speaks Hindi...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk5VmfRkDGY

One thing is strange though. Although AF/WM pairings are more common, the most common pairings I see on TV is the AF/BM pairing. Can you tell me why? Because such a pairing is more acceptable to racist white women who are all over this country, but particularly in the South?

I think if the Asian men look for Asian women from abroad and African American women look for black women from abroad, that would be six million new immigrants not subject to quotas and would hasten the day when whites become a minority in this country. Do the minorities want to allevaiate the racism problem in this country...of course we will never solve it. Simple. Make whites a minority in this country.

CCB Tamil, I read thru some of that Rai thread and there was interesting commentary. I thought that some of it might be germane to this thread especially the "Little India" piece that you've linked. I think that key in this is something that AV pointed to - the 'idealized' view of white held by too many BUT NOT ALL minorities in this country. I noted earlier that that the African American community does not seem to be quite as 'enamored' with white America. This sometime results in bad decisions but the Black cultural 'vine' seems to be immune to trampling or complete homogenization despite numerous attempts. Asian Americans seem much more intent on or susceptible to being homogenized into white America to the point of lossing sense of self. One possible problem is that the concept of "Asian American" is a false construct in that there is no homogeneous 'Asia' so there can be no consistent 'Asian American' perspective. Each group, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Sri Lankan, etc comes to the "Asian" table with their own perceptions fueled by the circumstances of their arrival and the intergroup issues that occurred both here and in the 'old country'. Hence when immersed in the majority group there is no strong cultural anchor to hold onto and, save for language, adrift we go. I think that the language 'island' is a strong part of the glue that held the Chinese American community together despite their lengthy stay here - that coupled with the timing of their arrival when legal racism worked to wall them out of the larger society similar to that done to Blacks.

Maybe this plays into the both the gender discord (no anchor in self means little appreciation for continuing that group 'self') AND the suicide rates of young Asian American women (remember the adoptees issue?). Would it help resolve this (not that it will happen here, but we could be "a butterfly's wings") if there was a more concrete definition of "Asian American" culture? One where we could more accurately separate real cultural underpinnings from community responses to 'conditions' or context? Would the development of same require some abandonment or reshaping of familial customs that came from 'countries of origin' but do have currency across borders albeit with different names? Much like African Americans created a culture out of the CuisineArt mash-up that slavery forced them into.

[They were denied information about family/tribe, access to fellow 'countrymen' and customs and even prohibited from speaking their native tongues - mixing 'tribes' created a 'tower of babel' such that english was the only lingua franca they could use and thus reduced their ability to communicate without whites understanding what was being said. In certain respects, the same thing is done now to keep minority groups from recognizing the similarity of their plight - "model minorities" vs. "affirmative action".]

This 'mash-up' for Blacks has had its negatives - a lack of historical self-esteem which maybe responsible for the (apparent) tolerance of some negative behaviours as 'oppositional' to white culture, but also its positives, a greater perceived sense of loyalty to the group. But even Blacks have had those who would 'pass' if the opportunity presented itself. That rarely happens now out of (I'm guessing) a 'fear' of being disowned by the group.

Rebecca, I do recognize the implied message in the imbalance between girls in adoption and boys ('males' hold greater cultural value) but this is not just an Asian thing; it is bad habit that is held pretty much worldwide. Based on your posts, I would assume that your mother did not raise you to accept the patriarchy model as a foregone conclusion and I would presume that your father at a minimum did not object to her approach - Asian Dads want their daughters to be great too! If that is true (and I assume it is) did they or would they have raised your brother differently? Why? How? Also, I would hope that men, including Asian men, are not depending upon women, including Asian women, to bestow upon them their sense of 'manliness'. That would make them a hostage to an outside force - remember Samson and Delilah. Not good. But is it good to be appreciated and made to feel attractive - and that's true for everyone.

And on a lighter note, if I do get a chance I will certainly flirt with you, but I am a little confused as to how I might go about it without drifting into patriarchal bits of machismo which I am sure would be spurned.

By the way, I am sure that's a nice outfit you have on today.
And much more than a mouthful goes to waste I always say! ;-)

Anyone else think that as soon as media representation of Asian men increase positively, the disparity will go down.

Charcoal Colored Black Tamil - Thank you for sharing the article regarding South Asian Americans. It is pretty sad every minority group has to go through this. Whatever happened to be happy with who you are?

I think the quickest way to do this is to take over Hollywood and finance movies that actually portrait Asians as regular humans. You know, give roles to Asians or Asian Americans the very same roles white actors get regularly now. I still remember the feeling when I was younger that every time an Asian person shows up on the big screen, I had this nauseating feeling and hoped secretly that the image won't be so bad. Let's face it, Asians are on TV basically so white people can have someone to laugh at or hate. I just wish all the Asian Americans would know the truth and unite to confront these problems vs. buying into white people stereotypes of Asians and confirm their stereotypes. Yes, I do believe many white-washed Asians believe all the same white stereotypes of Asians themselves deep down.

I hope the next Asian Billionaire would invest in some money and develop a movie industry that has appeal to the worldwide market and not have only white actors in lead roles.

AV:

As long as I know Sony is Japanese. Their coming to Hollywood has not created too many roles for Asian Americans. The Amritharaj brothers of Indian Tennis fame are producers. They are as black as I am and yes they are Tamils. Guess what, I dont see them recruiting Indian Americans or Asian Americans. I think he may have offered a role to some Indian actors, but I am not sure. Then there is Shyamlan, a top producer. But most of his actors are whites including foreign born whites.

http://movie.consumerhelpweb.com/people/s/shyamalan.htm

I think the role played by Poppy Montgomerry in Without a Trace can be played by any Asian American female. CBS had a good looking African American woman in the Ghost Whisperers, but despite the success of the series during the first season they phased the African American actor out and replace her with a fat white.

If you want to see Asian Americans in media, go make the media yourself! And if you don't have the talent for it, then give money to people who do. Give money to the the Center For Asian American Media in SF or Visual Communications in LA who give grants to filmmakers. Give it to Hyphen, who is publishing new writers and photographers. Give it to the East West Players and other Asian American theatre companies who are nurturing actors. If there's a movie by an Asian American filmmaker opening in your town with Asian American actors in it, go see it. Buy tickets til it sells out. Money talks and people need to know there's a market for Asian Americans in media. There was a survey I remember reading that said Asian Americans who had money tended to give it to the same places that white people did, like the ballet. Basically, they were still chasing the white dream and trying to show they had arrived. They hardly gave any money to Asian American organizations. Sad, sad sad. We could learn a thing or two from the Jewish community and be more supportive of media and the arts coming from our own communities. Anyone who doubts the importance of media need only to read the debate raging on this post.

Anon -

For me I already do that. However, I do have issues with other Asian Americans who continue to make films that contribute to the existing stereotypes.

If we have to wait until white men to give us a break in the media, we might be all dead by then. Like I said before, you can't control the world but you certainly can control yourself. If you see films where there are no minorities or cast Asians negatively, don't go see it.

Charcoal - Sony might be owned by Japanese, but I am pretty sure it is still being run by American executives. Also, asking a Japanese company to understand struggles of Asian Americans might be a reach even though we are both Asian. I don't know much about how Sony run their production company so I have to do more research before commenting.

That being said, there is no excuse being white washed forever and continue to play into white men's hands and be their good little Asian exotic doll.

I think it's a very true concept that as soon as media changes it's portrayals of Asian men ALONG with Asian America being proud of itself rather than being the insecure crap-fest it is now, I can almost bet the house that the amount of Asian women married or dating Asian men will increase tenfold.

The proof is in the pudding when I see these articles on IMDB about Asian actors and how women in general never thought of Asian men in "that" way until now.

Anyways, we should get back on topic...

After reading stories such as these, I really wonder whether Asian women are really accepted by white families or is it all just a facade...and this friends, happened in NY over the last few years...

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_woman_mag?id=161196806

Interesting story CCBT, but why does it make you wonder about the acceptance of Asian girls by whites? This girl is not part Asian, she is part Trinidadian and I would guess that her Trinidadian part is of African ancestry. I am very aware of the large South Asian population in Trinidad/Tobago but the overwhleming majority are of African ancestry. The acceptance by whites is conditional on what they are being asked to accept. Notice that the majority of adoptees are EAST Asian, not SOUTH Asian. There are many reasons for this I am sure, but I suspect that 'comfort' is one of them. How welcoming would the South Asian community be if she were 'masala' (the correct term?)? I suspect not very warmly if your previous post from LI is to be believed.

But the "acceptance" thing is a very important component of the overall dating issue. I contend that a more ready acceptance of asian women (starting as adoptees) by white families has 'normalized' asian women in the mind of many whites. This has not happened for most other minorities. This 'normalizing' that Asian women have experienced has simlutaneously warped their sense of 'value' such that they place greater value on that which has accepted them (white people) than that which has 'not'. ["not"? Consider this: on a primal level 'men' are supposed to 'protect' their 'women'. To the extent that asian women have been adoopted by white families with white men, at a subconcious level they might 'conclude' that Asian men did not 'protect' them -their daughters - by allowing them to be 'taken' by these 'others' who are now protecting them; their new 'fathers' - white men. But hey, I'm no psychologist!]

Such is the birth of the 'preference' and this is then transmitted to a broader spectrum (non-adoptees) of Asian women thru 'social transmission'. How do you interrupt this stream? How do we disrupt the 'banana-fication' of asian americans?

I know more than 50% of Asian American women marry white men. I would like to know what proportion of white men even date Asian women. 3% may be? How many white families have adopted Asian girls? one percent may be? That still leaves us with the overwhelming proportion of whites who tend to be homogeneous..and would really like to know whether an Asian female would be accepted. I believe many of these blonde girls did not have any Asian friends either.

Hey guys, I think you're exaggerating the number of Asian American women marrying white men. While the number of Asian Americans marrying whites has increased over the years, it's not 50 percent. Personally, most of my Asian American friends and relatives are dating or marrying other Asian Americans, (mostly these are inter Asian couples, and not the same ethnicity). I am probably not the best example of an "average" Asian American though, since I am a Hyphen reader.

Did anyone look at the link that Rob put up? It shows an analysis of census data, by ethnic groups and by gender, of who they marry. The census data is from 2000 though, so I'm not sure what the numbers look like in 2007.

http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml

This analysis, along with another one the writer cites, concluded that "all Asian ethnic groups and husbands and wives are also more likely to marry another Asian (either within their own ethnic group or some other Asian ethnic group) than before and that despite the increasing popularity of Asian intermarriage with Whites, the data show that these days Asian Americans are much more likely to marry another Asian than to marry a White person."

Hey I'd just like to add my two cents. I'm mixed black+white (Jamaican, Irish).

My dating experience is a little different but maybe somewhat linked to this whole 'Asian American'/interracial dating thing.

I live in a mostly-white middle class suburban area, I grew up hearing about the 'white ideal' male that all the young girls ogled over.

You know, straight blonde hair, sometimes spiky, blue eyes, etc. I suppose I could fit into that 'tall dark and handsome' stereotype but I find it hasn't worked that well for me even though I am a decent looking guy.

I was always irritated by that 'blonde hair blue eyed' ideal I've always heard white girls drooled over when I was young. Because of this I can identify quite strongly with the Asian males on here who also feel like they don't fit into the 'ideal' white 'hot & to die for' male.

I KNOW the feeling quite well despite being half white and pretty much identifying with white culture, heck I pretty much AM white just with darker curly/wavy hair and a slight tan!

I never get a consistent guess from people of what my ethnicity is, but there is usually a pattern. White people will think I'm anything but white (black, indian, asian, mexican, etc).

Indians/Asians think I'm white, blacks think I'm white, some indo-carribeans will think I'm Chinese.

Never have a problem flirting with white women in person, though I can say I haven't gotten as much attention as I'd like from them.

Coming from a mixed background I have always had a completely different point of view when it comes to dating. I genuinely don't give a crap. Why would I exclude anyone? If I include both my ethnicities (white + black), why would I excude Asian or anyone else? I wouldn't and I don't exclude them.

I never saw myself as a target of racism either.

The turning point for me came when I started dating online. I have dated mostly non-white women. Mostly Asian actually. Why? Is it because I chose them? Not really! I find them attractive no doubt about that but that wasn't the main factor.

I just found Asian women more receptive to me. They were more willing to talk to me. Being a non-white male, I get dick-all responses from white women. That shocked me because I am half-white myself, but I may as well be Asian or Black or whatever, I may as well be a FOB when it comes to ONLINE dating where ethnicity is explicitly mentioned and a picture is all they have to go by. White women choose to reject me based on that.

So I can't help but see the pattern and I am somewhat bitter towards white women. This is why I almost exclusively date non-white women including Asian women who I find to be beautiful (I was always attracted to petite women, always attracted to darker hair).

So there you have it. I have the same feelings towards white women that you have towards your fellow Asian women, and that is why I choose to date 'your' women. Just don't lump us mixed guys in with the white guys when you vent your frustration OK? I share your frustration ;)

why is asian women and white men such a big topic it is a fact that no matter what the womans skin color is if she is with a white man no one likes it i wish you all would just leave white men the fuck alone i dont hear anyone complaining about black men dating interracially can you tell me why and if you say i am off the subject just look at how many times some black guy has turned the focus from white to black on these blogs please get a life and leave the white man alone

"why is asian women and white men such a big topic it is a fact that no matter what the womans skin color is if she is with a white man no one likes it i wish you all would just leave white men the fuck alone i dont hear anyone complaining about black men dating interracially can you tell me why and if you say i am off the subject just look at how many times some black guy has turned the focus from white to black on these blogs please get a life and leave the white man alone"

That is exactly what I am saying. Leave the white man and his Asian woman alone. I am suggesting that if the Asian do that, they will date and marry Asians from abroad, which means one million more non-white immigrants to this country, and if the black woman leaves the black man alone to date whomever he wants and goes for a foreign black, that would mean another five million non-white immigrants. Together, the Asian man and the black woman can make whites a minority in this country. Thanks for your advise.

Yes, the poor white man. The most oppressed victim in North America. If you can't deal with this type of oppression now, if you were a minority in this country, I think you'd kill yourself by now.

The reason why others don't like you is because you don't know WHY others don't like you. Your ignorance reminds me of the story about the fisherman and the white guy who's driving his boat around.

On the banks of the river, there is a fisherman attempting to catch fish to feed his family. In the middle of the river, there is a white man who's driving his boat around at top speed, enjoying life and himself. Unfortunately, he doesn't notice that the wake left in the water from the boat is scaring the fish away.

Meanwhile, the fisherman is complaining and yelling at him but the white man in the boat is too far away to see him.

"mike," pull your head out of your ass and know that not everything revovles around you.

Reminds me of another joke:

"How many white men does it take to screw in a light bulb."

"Just one. One white man to hold the light bulb into the socket and for the rest of the world to revolve around him."

Not to spend too much energy on "mike" but I suspect that you would find similar conversations occuring on black-focused blogs especially black women focused blogs. You might also see a comparable hue and cry if black men were out-marrying at a 30%+ rate. But they're not - although many a white man thinks that the 'mandigo' is still 'lusting after his womanfolk' - to whit your comment Mike.

And Girlfriend, thanks for the stats but if you look at the second page you would quickly conclude that the out-marriage rate for East Asian American women is over the 30% clip (for Koreans they marry more non-Koreans than Koreans!) and that the 'preference' (sorry Ken) is overwhelmingly towards white men. Seems there is a bit of a discrimination stain in the East Asian American women's flag.

Back to Mike, if you really read the posts you would see that the primary 'question' has been posed to Asian American women, not white men. This example of a cognative misread on your part Mike, sort of underlines RP's point.
It's not really about 'you'.

Rice Patty:

That is funny. "How many white men does it take to fix a levy?" Hundreds of white men in the Army Corp of Engineers and it aint fixed yet. "How many white men does it take to fix a bridge?" None, because it does not exist anymore thanks to the white man.

And by the way, what race is the fisherman?

Mike:

When the white man stops whining about affirmative action and the blacks taking their women, the Asian will stop complaining about Asian women and white men.

Mike -

When white men stop stereotyping Asians and treat us more fairly in the media, perhaps people will stop complaining.

White men's idea of diversity - Minority women. Asian men or minority men for that matter need not apply.

White men's idea of interracial relations - It is good as long as the men is white. See just about every single Hollywood movie for examples. Again, minority men need not apply cause we don't want to affect white men's fragile egos.

Of course, white men want everyone to shut up cause status quo is good for the white men. After all, as long as white men are portrayed as the ideal men who cares about anyone else. Who cares about racism as long as it favors the white men right?

My advice to you - wake the fuck up!

I agree with Eddy, "girlfriend." You should be rereading the article and statistics presented before you. For some specific Asian groups, women are more likely to have a white partner than an Asian one. Also, I want you to factor in unmarried Asian women with non-Asian men which is also presented on the second page.

The statistics are staggering.

How can this be if the Asian American population is exploding right behind Latinos? One word; immigration.

The only reason why the Asian community is "growing" is because it is sustained by immigration. If the white male controlled country decided to close down it's borders in the next 10 years (which they are fully capable of doing so), it's estimated that the Asian community would be bred out in a matter of generations based on these statistics alone. There is a bill proposed by Congress right now that would not allow immigrants to endorse their families overseas as citizens.

There is only one demographic that resembles Asian Americans in terms of dating habits, Jews. Jews currently have a 50% interracial marriage rate and their population hasn't grown in decades. This is the future of Asian America.

Tamil, the minorities of America are represented by the fisherman.

Sakomoto and AV, that's why I hate how America is trumping up the virtues of interracial dating. As long as white men aren't losing too much, it's all good. It's all right because it's all white. Interracial dating and marriage has caused more strife and animosity in minority communities than helped. Then there are idiots that believe interracial dating proves racism is dying. It's so stupid that it's beyond comprehension.

Ironically, some of the most racist white men are married to Asian women.

Some recent examples from the news include:

1.) White sheriff in Farmer's Branch, Texas said that as long as he was chief, there would be no "gooks" on his police force. He's married to a Japanese woman. The good news is that he was turned in by other white people.

2.) Producer for NBC's Law and Order constantly referred to Asians as "Chinamen." His wife is Chinese.

3.) JV from the talkshow "Doghouse" constantly made anti-Asian male remarks. He's married to a Korean import model.

If I was a white man and wanted to rid the country of minorities, I would push interracial marriage because it's the only way to absorb a minority community.

In the words of King Edward the Longshanks: "The problem with Scotland is that it's full of Scots. If we can't get them out, we'll bred them out."

As much as it's the PC thing to say and do, being colorblind is dangerous. It sounds good on paper to be colorblind, gender blind, religion blind, and sexual orientation blind.

However, there is a very dangerous word in all of them. Can you spot it? It's the word "blind." It means you can't see. I'd rather see everything and make my decisions based on all available information.

"The only reason why the Asian community is "growing" is because it is sustained by immigration. If the white male controlled country decided to close down it's borders in the next 10 years (which they are fully capable of doing so), it's estimated that the Asian community would be bred out in a matter of generations based on these statistics alone."

Not going to happen.

"There is a bill proposed by Congress right now that would not allow immigrants to endorse their families overseas as citizens."

The bill is dead.

"There is only one demographic that resembles Asian Americans in terms of dating habits, Jews. Jews currently have a 50% interracial marriage rate and their population hasn't grown in decades. This is the future of Asian America."

No need. The Jews are more influential now than they were ever before.

"Tamil, the minorities of America are represented by the fisherman."

OK.

"Sakomoto and AV, that's why I hate how America is trumping up the virtues of interracial dating. As long as white men aren't losing too much, it's all good. It's all right because it's all white. Interracial dating and marriage has caused more strife and animosity in minority communities than helped. Then there are idiots that believe interracial dating proves racism is dying. It's so stupid that it's beyond comprehension."

Racism wont die until whites become a minority in the USA.

"Ironically, some of the most racist white men are married to Asian women."

One British guy in the place I work is married to an African but does not like blacks.

"In the words of King Edward the Longshanks: "The problem with Scotland is that it's full of Scots. If we can't get them out, we'll bred them out."

Scots who left the shores have been bred out. Their mixed descendants are are called whites.

People, there is no need, nor is it fair to jump on Mike's head all day and night. He is just a person posting on the blog and IF it truly is 'not about him', then demonstrate that.

Now I am going to piss some of you off.

White men are not 'taking' Asian American women. No one is driving up at night; throwing a pillowcase over the woman's head and dragging her off in a van with the windows tinted out. They are not being hypnotized. AA women are CHOOSING white men. The question is WHY? And that question goes to AA women. NOT white men.
(can you blame them? AA women are so fine! but I digress...)

On the 'bredding out' of Asians, I disagree. How to prevent it? Why not take the long held American approach? The 'one drop' rule that is almost universally applied to black/white interracial children - the child is categorized as 'black' and this is pretty much irrespective of what the child actually looks like.

I theorize that the reason this is not so readily applied to the offspring of asian/white couples is because Asian Americans - in large measure - would rather 'be' white than not be white. We crow about Will Demps and Ward Hines NOW but what about BEFORE they were 'big time'? This voluntary group subrogation of AA 'culture' (see previous post about the challenge of identifying/defining Asian American culture) and identity to white American 'culture' (the root of which is the presupposition that "American" = "white") is, in my opinion, a key element of this problem.

[An aside, Black Americans seem to be much more about pulling people into their group - even if its sort of an 'honorary' status. When they exclude or ostracize it is more often out of a philosophical difference than a pigmentation or racial lineage issue. Compare the attitudes towards Bill Clinton and Clarence Thomas.]

If Asian Americans are, in the quest to solidify their 'American-ness' talking about "Boy, those white people sure have got it together. I want to be like that!" then it should not come as any surprise that an Asian American who is offered the social mobility to 'move up' is going to take that step. Further, the racism that is displayed when looking at the out-marriage numbers should come as no surprise either. In fact I would expect that Asian Americans would be MORE racist in their mate selections than whites since their 'hold' on what they perceive as American indentity is more tenuous. THIS IS NOT TO ACCUSE ALL ASIAN AMERICANS WHO HAVE WHITE S.O. OF BEING RACIST AND SOCIAL CLIMBERS. SOME (I hope most) ARE 'IN IT' FOR LOVE. But love is not blind...sometimes it hallucinates.

Ken, AV, RP (and CCBT if this applies to you) you have all mentioned your disdain for AA women who are 'snow blind' and that you've dated non-Asians. In this activity have you largely pursued white women? If not, did she have to look like Beyonce? (hot, but a very fair-skinned Black) And I don't mean 'I've dated a Black\Latina\Other" for a single lunch, dinner or movie - that is easy. But a single lunch date or dinner date does not equal 'dating' someone. I'm talking about seriously dating. Have you considered it? If not, why not? Have you not met someone who 'shares your goals, outlook and sense of humor"? If you think about it are you doing something similar to AA women and your real 'gripe' is that the AA women is not picking you?

As for media - contrary to AV's post, today's TV medium seems to have latched onto the 'black male/asian female' couple (see other thread on the Hyphen Blog) DESPITE THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in over 98% of 'real life'.
Why is that?
To placate racist white women?
To ferment divisions between Asians and Blacks? (Both hard to reconcile with overly liberal Hollywood mindsets)
To show examples of good relationships between Asians and Blacks so as to decrease tensions.
I don't know. The jury's still out.

You've got to look deeper to find the source of this river.
"Big Bad White Men" don't scare me any more. I'm worried about the enemy within.

Bottom line - Asian women who are selling out to the white men reinforces Asian men stereotypes and some of these women have no problem spreading their views on TV or whatever. That is the source of the major gender divide right there. When it comes to defending Asian men in the media, it is usually white or black women who are dating men and rarely ever from Asian women. It seems only the sellout Asian women have the biggest voice in the media and white men love to put these women in Hollywood or in front of a mic to further spread the stereotypes.

I agree with Eddy for the most part.

The cancer is rotting the body from within and non-Asian women have been more attentive when it comes to addressing anti-Asian male stereotypes.

Look, there is a long history of Asian women and black men belittling their opposite genders because they have the option to date whites while the other side is less apt to. Therefore, they know we'll always be around and can leave, annoying, and even mock us. After all, where are black women/Asian men going to go? If whites ever tire of black men and Asian women, they'll come flooding back and proclaim how we were better anyway.

We stay home like the battered spouse waiting until 3AM for them to come home. The biggest enemy of these two communities is caused from the inside, not outside.

Glad to know all whites have to do in order to divide a community is to accept one but not the other. Just shows how well "pride" stands up until white society is willing to accept you.

To answer Eddy, my brother is dating a black girl and their relationship has been pushing 4 years now.

Ha-ha.

I guess Asian people really -are- naturally treacherous. Throw them a bone and they’ll tear each other to pieces fighting over it rather than watching out for each other and sharing.

If Asian people actually had a pan-identity movement and the women didn't leave the men twisting in the wind, they'd actually be a threat to white power.

It's so funny because the solution is right in front of your faces and you can't see the forest for the trees.

"As for media - contrary to AV's post, today's TV medium seems to have latched onto the 'black male/asian female' couple (see other thread on the Hyphen Blog) DESPITE THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in over 98% of 'real life'.
Why is that? To placate racist white women?"

Yes.

"I guess Asian people really -are- naturally treacherous. Throw them a bone and they’ll tear each other to pieces fighting over it rather than watching out for each other and sharing."

True. Look at how Indians are tearing each other apart in this blog..pretty sad!!

http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/8620.html?1003947223

"It's so funny because the solution is right in front of your faces and you can't see the forest for the trees."

They need to go abroad and marry Asian women and flood this country with non-white immigrants. That is the only way the problem of racism will be solved...make whites a minority.

You are still focusing on a symptom and not the disease. Ask yourself this question: if white women were as interested in you - as an Asian man - as you perceive white men are interested in Asian women, would you still be complaining? Ask and answer this question honestly.

Also, to compare the frequency of out-marriage of Black men to the frequency for Asian American women is disingenuous. Blacks out marry at about a 10% rate which is much lower (less than 1/3) than that of Asian momen. It is inappropriate to compare whites to any other group because they outnumber all the other groups by wide margins. In most groups, men out marry more than women (remnants of patriarchy!) EXCEPT Asians and Latinos (however men and women are much closer than Asians and remember, there are white Latinos).

The big issue is NOT that Asian women out marry, it is expected and normal that that some percentage would. The issue is the EXTENT to which they out marry - a friggin' lot.

BUT it is my contention or concern that the PROBLEM lies deeper that that. I suspect that IF Asian men had the same opportunity to marry white women THAT THEY WOULD ALSO DO IT!!

Now the problem that this unmasks is a deeper, more fundamental devaluation of Asian American-ness by Asian Americans when THEY compare it to white American-ness.

White people cannot be expected to make YOU value YOUR culture. Even if they tried, they would probably do a bad job.

RP, it sounds like your brother has found himself someone who cares for him and he has not abandoned her due to capacity for 'social advancement' or the lack thereof. It speaks well for your upbringing. It tells us not much about you. How do your parents react to your brother's choice? The rest of your family and friends?

CCBT do you have anything (studies; investigation, etc) to back up your assertion? It 'feels' retinal in some ways, but in others it seems very inconsistent with the idea of a 'liberal' Hollywood. I'm not dismissing it, but would love to see some validation.

"CCBT do you have anything (studies; investigation, etc) to back up your assertion? It 'feels' retinal in some ways, but in others it seems very inconsistent with the idea of a 'liberal' Hollywood. I'm not dismissing it, but would love to see some validation."

What studies are you talking about? Anything particular? Hollywood and the GOP are not much different. GOP is closet liberal as Hollywood is open liberal. The main players in both groups sleep around, fornicate, have homosexual relationships, go to prostitutes, get drunk, have several marriages, aka, Rush Limbaugh..so not much different. However, they both are conservative (racist) in one respect, they plan to maintain a pure white lineage, dont encourage mixing of races, particularly whites with other races, dont encourage interracial dating or marriages, and lately push the mixture of non-white population (and hence more black men/asian women pairings) etc. In short, there is no difference between the GOP and Hollywood. The latter would do it in the open while the former are closet liberals except for one issue, race.

Yes CCBT I was looking for particulars, specifics, names and citations. You reponded with some 'comparison' of the the GOP and Hollywood as indistinguishable. Frankly as the saying goes "that dog won't hunt", so I'll take that as a 'no, I don't'. You also say that their intent is to maintain a pure white lineage and are against interracial mixing, but at the same time are 'promoting' black male/asian female pairings. This is kind of contradictory to me.

Can anbody else help out on this issue?

"Yes CCBT I was looking for particulars, specifics, names and citations. You reponded with some 'comparison' of the the GOP and Hollywood as indistinguishable. Frankly as the saying goes "that dog won't hunt", so I'll take that as a 'no, I don't'. You also say that their intent is to maintain a pure white lineage and are against interracial mixing, but at the same time are 'promoting' black male/asian female pairings. This is kind of contradictory to me."

MS Masala: Indian female and a black male.

One Night Stand: Wesley Snipes and Ming Na Wen

Grey's Anatomy: Sandra Oh and Isiah Washington

Code Name: The Cleaner: Lucy Liu and Cedric the Entertainer

Ally MacBeal: Lucy Liu and her love interest, cant remember his name.

There even was an Asian man with a black woman pairing: Jet Li and the late Aaliyah in Romeo Must Die, back in 200o, but no white female, Asian male pairing although that is more common than asian male/black female.

ER: Parminder Nagra marries Shafiq Atkins

http://www.mixedmediawatch.com/2006/02/23/the-new-trend-of-asian-women-with-black-men/

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003575.html

"You also say that their intent is to maintain a pure white lineage and are against interracial mixing, but at the same time are 'promoting' black male/asian female pairings."

I should have been clearer. Purity of the white women, which also the white women audience wants.

The GOP and Hollywood actually think alike. Both philander, both fornicate, both have sex outside marriage and both have several members who have had multiple marriages including Rudy Gulliani and Newt Gingrich (not very different from Elizabeth Taylor). However, both use race as the wedge issue to get viewers in the case of Hollywood and get supporters in the case of GOP. Both oppose interracial marriages with white women (Hollywood does not even show a black/white pairing unless it is some form of scandal) and the GOP in its commercials (remember I met Harold at the Playboy Party commercial in Tennessee??).

Do you remember the real life Asian male/white female couple who got lost in the mountains of Oregon? I believe James Kim and Kati Kim are their names and the father died trying to find help for the family. Now I hear that they would be featured in Without a Trace, but it is either as a white-white couple or as a black male/asian female couple. I would be looking out.

Do you remember the real life Asian male/white female couple who got lost in the mountains of Oregon? I believe James Kim and Kati Kim are their names and the father died trying to find help for the family. Now I hear that they would be featured in Without a Trace, but it is either as a white-white couple or as a black male/asian female couple. I would be looking out.

Black man asian woman couples in Hollywood:

Kira Watanabe-Finster and Chaz Finster, All Grown Up!

Richard Fish and Ling Woo, Ally McBeal

Galen Tyrol and Sharon "Boomer"
Valerii, Battlestar Galactica

Karl "Helo" Agathon and Sharon "Boomer" Valerii, Battlestar Galactica

Jason Gibbons and Alex Munday, Charlie's Angels

John and Vivian, Chinese Box

Superboy (Kon-El) and Tana Moon, DC Comics characters

Mark Deosdade and Laurel Yeung, Edgemont

Doctor and mistress, The Final Cut

Harry Potter and Cho Chang, Harry Potter series

Daniel LaRusso and Kumiko, The Karate Kid, Part II

Bobby Hill and Connie Souphanousinphone, King of the Hill

Aurelius and Mira, The Last Legion
Nathan Algren and Taka, The Last Samurai

B.F. Pinkerton and Cio-Cio-san (Butterfly), Madama Butterfly

Harry Callahan and Sunny, Magnum Force
Wolverine and Mariko Yashida, Marvel Comics characters

Max and Soon Lee Klinger, M*A*S*H and After M*A*S*H

Sonny Crockett and Isabella, Miami Vice

Chris and Kim, Miss Saigon

Doug and Tilo, The Mistress of Spices

Thomas Fowler and Phuong, The Quiet American

Rambo and Co Bao, Rambo: First Blood Part II

Miles and Keiko O'Brien, Star Trek:
The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

doctor and assistant Saw
Mariko and John Blackthorne, Shogun

Ishmael and Hatsue, Snow Falling on Cedars

Cale and Akima, Titan A.E.
Wayne Campbell and Cassandra, Wayne's World

Think I posted the wrong stuff. The above is the Asian woman/white male couples..sorry for this blunder. Sunday morning. Here is the real asian woman/black male couples:

Asian woman and Black man
Bryan and Jun Ni, Hair Show
Kenny and his Wife, Rush Hour 2
Web Smith and Jingo Asakuma, Rising Sun
Jackson Duper and Ling Woo, Ally McBeal
Marcus Jackson and Lois Wong Jackson, Bad Santa
Dr. Gregory Pratt and Dr. Jing-Mei "Deb" Chen, ER
Dr. Michael Gallant and Dr. Neela Rasgotra, ER
G and XiXi, My Baby's Daddy
Brandon and May-Ling, Fakin' Da Funk
Dr. Preston Burke and Dr. Cristina Yang, Grey's Anatomy
Demetrius Williams and Meena, Mississippi Masala
Mac and Quon Lee Robinson, Night Court
Max and Mimi Carlyle, One Night Stand
J. Calvin Frazier and Wendy, Grown Ups (Episode: 'Instant Karma')
Neil Shaw and Julia Fang, Art of War
Mookie and Jee, Gas
Kasper Cole and Gwen, Black Panther
Jue and Thaddeus, Final Flight of the Osiris
Steve Grant and Lucy Westenra, The Breed
Michael and Genie, Face
Nathan and Marife, Midnight Sunshine, a novel by Kelvin L. Reed
Dr. Georgianna Wong and Mark, Troublemaker and Other Saints, a novel by Christina Chiu (Story: 'Doctor')
Greg and Noelle ( both uncredited), Grey's Anatomy (Episode: 'Let the Angels Commit')
Lt. Henry Purcell and Thai Girlfriend, Stealth
Jake Rodgers and Gina, Code Name: The Cleaner
Tej and Suki, 2 Fast 2 Furious
Chandler and Kee, The Golden Child
Hoshi Sato and Travis Mayweather, Star Trek: Enterprise (Episode: 'In a Mirror Darkly, Part II')

Almost equal numbers as the other pairing.

I think the reason they have black male and Asian women on TV is simple - trying to PC to every while killing two birds with one stone (showing two minorities). In real life, most AFs would never date black men. This is the same for Asian males too. I have dated BFs myself. I believe there are many BFs are open to date Asian men, but most Asian men never thought of going down that route due their own racism.

I think these issues will continue to be a problem as long as we all live in an Anglo Saxon dominated country like America. Americans are changing and there are now 100M minorities in this country. Maybe someday the same images will be reflected on TV.

It really is up to each individual Asian guy to get his own confidence and image and not let this society ruin you from the day you are born.

AV, THANK YOU!!! Great summation and you are the first to acknowledge racism as an issue amongst AA men. An increase in confidence, a decrease in racism and an removal of concern or preoccupation with 'white' will help AA men and AA women which can only be good for everyone concerned - even those who remain or choose interracial relationships because there would be less 'suspicion' about the underlying reasons for that relationship.

CCBT, here is what you posted in response to my question:

"As for media - contrary to AV's post, today's TV medium seems to have latched onto the 'black male/asian female' couple (see other thread on the Hyphen Blog) DESPITE THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in over 98% of 'real life'.
Why is that? To placate racist white women?"

Yes.

Posted by: Charcoal Colored Black Tamil at September 1, 2007 5:40 PM

What I ws looking for was some materials, study, survey, analysis that supported or substantiated your "Yes" reply.

A listing of TV couples and movies (especially movies as they are typically one shot deals, so have limited lasting social impact) does not substantiate your claim. Also, the operative qualifier I placed on my comment was "TODAY'S TV".

I am inclined to go with AV's position - it gives Hollywood a chance for the "double play" on minority representation without too much work or ruffling many feathers. If they put an Asian women with a white man they get accused of reinforcing the 'geisha' image; if they put a black man with a white women they get hate mail from the GOP's base; if they put a black man with a black woman and they have any 'strife' they get accused of reinforcing a negative message (notice that all of those couples go thru some 'ghetto' problem even though most Black Americans are not poor nor live in poverty) and if they make them Asian male/asian females they will have to go find asian male actors or else make them sound like immigrants and have them run a restaurant, grocery store or dry cleaners (maybe the occassional Dunkin' Donuts). All too much work!

Sakamoto, if they dare to present the Lees story and shift the race of ANY of the characters then the outcry should be HUGH! It is an insult to the family to shift the characterizations and capitalize on their tragedy but deny them any reward from the pot of gold they will make.

It is the same sort of insult that occured in that Nick Cage 9-11 film where they 'overlooked' the fact that one of the key rescuers of Cage's character in real life was Black but they cast a white guy.

"Sakamoto, if they dare to present the Lees story and shift the race of ANY of the characters then the outcry should be HUGH! It is an insult to the family to shift the characterizations and capitalize on their tragedy but deny them any reward from the pot of gold they will make."

You mean the Kim story?

yes Kim....MY BAD!

EG:

I dont know what we can do about it if they indeed show a white family or a white male/Asian female couple or even a black male/Asian female couple. They would say it is for ratings, and we all will shout and yell, but nothing seems to come off it.

EG:

No I have not seen specific studies. The only studies that exist are on modeling industry. You put a non-white female model and the white women stop buying the magazine..and mind you just for putting a black woman. Just imagine what would happen if they put an interracial couple on the cover of cosmopolitan. Will that magazine put an Asian female/white male couple or even an Asian female? I very much doubt it.

However, there are other informal "studies" and evidence that this is indeed the case:

http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=1234

And look at the bigotry and "pity" for the mixed Asian-white children in this blog..

http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/08/interracial_mar.html

I've been reading Hyphenmagazine.com for quite a bit now and I believe this is the longest thread in the history of this website. Haha.

With that out of the way, carry on.

Let us make it the longest running and difficult for other threads to catch up.

But does the length of the thread get us any closer to an answer? It is a shame that the women have dropped out, but I suppose that if they feel under attack it is understandable.

AV, you mentioned that AA men don't tend to think of other non-Asian women as desireable (Blacks & Latinos) and that white women are unobtainable. Why do you think they feel that way? I was raised to not discount or dismiss anyone based on race and with opportunities to learn about a lot of different histories. What was your upbringing like? Do you and yoor brother have different views on the subject? Was your family mindful of those issues or is it something your brother came to as an adult?

What do you guys think of the impact of 'learned racism' which presents whites as 'ideal' as a contributing factor in the 'second tier' status that many AA women place AA men? If AA men are taught racism, so would their 'sisters' and if that is the case, then their sisters might come to view 'white' as the superior option and push AA men to 'also-rans'.

Do you think that your AA male friends are more sexist or chauvinistic than your white male friends? Black males? Latino males?

No offense but it doesn't look like any women decided to comment or offer any real insight anyway.

They said 2-3 things and disappeared. If everyone decided to quit after feeling "attacked" in a debate, the proper route to take is to defend and attack someone else's argument, not tuck tail and run.

As a rule, I agree but some of the attacks were not really 'on the merits of an arguement' but name-calling and the like. That approach isn't one to keep a person engaged especially if they can simply avoid the situation by moving on. To a great extent, I would presume that the women who would regularly post on or read this blog or the magazine, Hyphen are not of the mindset that creates these clashes. There was a bit of 'defending the gender' which I can understand but blanket defenses like blanket condemnations don't get us very far.

I really would like to get some broader thoughts on this stuff. Men aren't all pigs, but you have to admit that some of the Japanese Manga/Hentai stuff can be pretty awful (misogynistic) and I am still puzzled by their tendency to draw characters as 'whites' (racially) even for product that seems targetted to Japanese audiences. WTF??

I think most AA families want their children to marry within the same ethnic group, ie., Chinese marrying Chinese, Vietnamese marrying Vietnamese, etc. If they cannot marry within their ethnic groups, they would rather not marry other Asians, eg. Vietnamese marrying Chinese etc. For instance, if they are Chinese they would rather see their kids, especially the female kids marry whites rather than Vietnames, Japanese or Filipino. It is ok for Chinese in the Philippines to marry whites but not the Filipinos. I know of cases where a Chinese family ostracized one daughter for marrying the Filipino but treated the white son in law like royalty.

Gee! That's pretty bad!
Sakamoto, do you think these types of internal 'racisms' (it isn't really 'racism' as they are of the same race - it is more an ethnic discrimination) is carried over to families in the US?

Given that sort of 'educational context' is it any wonder that AA women would choose white men over AA men?

"Gee! That's pretty bad!
Sakamoto, do you think these types of internal 'racisms' (it isn't really 'racism' as they are of the same race - it is more an ethnic discrimination) is carried over to families in the US?

Given that sort of 'educational context' is it any wonder that AA women would choose white men over AA men?"

Asian and Asian American men who complain about seeing white men with Asian women (in a number of cases this could be Filipinas). Singaporean Chinese men complain about Filipina maids with white men, some of whom are junior executives of multinationals. However, ask the same Chinese whether he will marry a Filipina maid, the answer would be clearly and unequivocally no!! Beneath status to marry a maid, Filipina or otherwise and marrying a Filipina would mean ostracization. Well, I did not tell you the whole story. Know of a Malaysian Chinese woman married to an African American who is reluctantly accepted. However, her sister married Vietnamese and they ostracized her.

Some of it has to do with racism. But, mostly traditional hatreds. Vietnamese and Chinese have fought wars. Koreans and Japanese dont like each other. Japanese raped women in Nanking, China. Thais hate the Khmers and both hate the Burmese due to their history. For instance, it is easier to get a Permanent Residence in Japan for a white man than for a man with mixed Japanese and Korean ancestry. The same is true of Korea.

To answer your question on Asians in America, yes it does exist especially among the FOBs and the first generation Asian American but I believe inter-ethnic marriages are increasing, and those hatreds would die out here, although not among the new immigrants and FOBs.

I understand some of those historical conflicts and they occur everywhere. I've experienced some of the Sing attitudes (don't be Malay or Tamil in Singapore!) Do you think that that 'looking down' attitude (i.e. Sing Chinese looking down on Filipinas) contributes to AA women looking down on AA men? It seems a pretty small jump to go from dissing fellow Asians because of what 'type' of Asian they are to dissing (almost) all AAs simply because they are 'Asian'?

Using the same logic that it is unlikely that sisters are raised differently than their brothers, if the men hold these dismissive views why wouldn't their sisters have been taught the same thing?

To the women, did you find a big difference between how your brothers were reared and you were reared? Was there a big gender double standard?

Hey guys, I'm sorry to tell you this, but I have better things to do than comment on the Hyphen blog all day long. Don't you guys have jobs? Or maybe that's why you're on here commenting all the time -- you have jobs you don't like very much.

Though I must say it really turns me off to see someone calling women bitches, (even if it's directed at sell-out Asian women). Calling women bitches, blaming the *whole* problem on women, that’s some extremely hostile behavior to me. And I realize not all the posters on this thread are doing that, but why bother dealing with someone who is that hostile towards women?

OK, so I did overlook the stats with couples living together (but not married) when I put up the AsianNation link. There are definitely certain ethnicities dating out to whites more than others. But I still think the problem is a tad exaggerated. It’s kind of like how the evening news only reports bad news. No one takes out the time to talk about positive news. You just talk about the bad stuff cause it’s more dramatic. Not to downplay the concerns you have. Just saying, you guys are acting a little like the evening news.

CCBT, I don’t think making whites a minority is going to solve the racism problem. As if white people were the only people who are racist. I’ve experienced racism from not just white people, but blacks too. And Asians are pretty darn racist themselves. That’s perhaps one reason why you see Asians dating mostly whites when they date out of their race. They look down on blacks, Latinos and Arabs. And they look down on Asians outside of their own ethnicities. Immigrants bring over their hatreds with them from their mother countries. I agree with Sakamoto that in many cases, Asian parents would rather see their children date whites than other Asians if it’s outside their specific ethnicity. This is what they teach their kids. So there is definitely some learned racism IMO.

Has anyone talked about higher education yet? (If you have, I’ve missed it.) Not all Asian Americans are highly educated, of course, but let’s look at the ethnicities that are dating white guys the most. They are East Asian. (Japanese being the highest group to date out). East Asians who come to this country are usually highly educated and continue to pursue higher education. And who is in higher education? Other East Asians and whites. Not that many Latinos and blacks. Unless you’re at a UC (that’s University of California for those of you non-Californians), you’re surrounded by white people, so that’s who you’re going to date. An Asian friend of mine grew up in a town on the east coast that was about 90 percent white. He said it didn’t even occur to him to expect to see other people besides white people. Who did he date? White girls. People go with what you're used to/comfortable with. And unless they grow their own brains, they probably absorb their parents racist ideas.

Eddy Grant, you pose a good question "To the women, did you find a big difference between how your brothers were reared and you were reared? Was there a big gender double standard?"

Personally, there was not for me, though I know this is not the case for other female Asian friends of mine. My parents are racist and homophobic, but not sexist. Ha ha. They are first generation, but my mom is pretty much a feminist, though I don't know if she would call herself that. But I'd be willing to bet that many immigrant families still operate under traditional gender roles. And your parents' relationship is probably a model (however bad or good) of how you grow up thinking relationships should be. If you're a guy and your mom dotes on your every move and you mom also caters to your dad, then perhaps you grow up thinking that's what women should do.

Also, another thought: notice how American society treats Asians as sort of like whites? It's that model minority myth at work. You don't even read about us in the paper. Whenever there are medical studies or marketing surveys, it's just whites, blacks and latinos, because it's assumed that Asian people are like white people.

(I should say treat Asians as sort of like whites when it's convenient to.)

Well, I can't speak for everyone else but I have a job where I work smarter, not harder. If you must know, I'm a bond trader and hedgefund manager who's day is hectic in the morning but is very relaxed in the afternoon where I have most of my time.

I came across this older article written in 2000 but still believe it's recent enough to be relevant.

http://www.asianweek.com/2000_02_03/feature_asianmale.html

Asian men and women need to learn compromise but it seems that no one wants to be the one to extend the first gesture. The first part is to acknowledge that there is a indeed a real rift between the genders. While Asian women do have a point of issue with sexism when it comes to Asian men (a recent article with Grace Park from Battlestar Galactica confirms it), Asian women have to understand that what they do and how they're seen in interracial relationships does indeed affect the morale and self confidence in Asian men.

What's sad is that the more confidence Asian men lack, the more Asian women will go to white men. Also, white men will also see this and be that much more confident with Asian women. To make it sound ugly, what needs to happen is that Asian American men and women need to destroy the confidence of white men.

You gotta give to get, people. Nothing is free in this world.

I think we should stay away from discussions that don't really reflect Asian Americans such as overseas Asians.

I totally second what girlfriend said.

But, to quote the above linked article, this is an example of what I think might be a misreading of basic dating:

"But that wasn’t the last disastrous date with an Asian woman. Last summer, Chow went out with another Chinese woman who told him she didn’t want to continue the relationship because he was too quiet.

“I was quiet growing up, but once I got to college I gained more confidence,” Chow says. “I was wondering if it was just an excuse. Her last boyfriend was white and I thought she turned me down because she prefers white men.”

Now, last I checked, there's nothing wrong with breaking up with someone if you find them too quiet. While some cultures may cultivate quietness, there are plenty of people of other ethnicities that quiet too. Boys, girls, white, Asian, latino, black--lots of quiet people out there! Are they fun to date? You tell me. Nothing like being the one to ask all the questions in a conversation and hearing pins drop. Possibly, Chow hadn't addressed his quietness like he thought he did. And the whole part about not being funny? Funny is funny, and funny is fun.

Those particular points strangely sound like that 'bad boy vs. nice boy' debate that I hear some men (in general--not ethnically specific) gripe about.

Anyway, last comment on this thread. Over and out.

I love how you only managed to extrapolate one point out of an entire article and focus specifically on that to convey a dismissive attitude.

It's that called a Strawman Argument?

okay, i'm going to comment again. because it wasn't like i just 'managed' to extrapolate one point. i HIGHLIGHTED one point that i thought was interesting, and indicative of what i think is a possibly skewed perspective through the lens of oversensitivity. yes, i read the article, and it sounds a lot like all of the perspectives we hear frequently, so i thought it safe to skip to that exemplifies a point that i would like to make. i believe in an earlier comment i said that yes, i do know that the masculinity of men is an issue. i also think, however, that _some_ things have to do with the dating game, over race, and discerning where this might be is important.

not related to dating but related, one time i was at a train station and a young black man asked me if he could have a cigarette. i said no. his response was, "it's because i'm black, huh." i said, "of course not. cigarettes are expensive, and i'm tired of handing one out to just anyone that asks for one." of course, in that interaction, i wasn't negating the fact that black people face discrimination.

ok. last comment for real. and no, i'm not tucking tail.

"CCBT, I don’t think making whites a minority is going to solve the racism problem. As if white people were the only people who are racist. I’ve experienced racism from not just white people, but blacks too. And Asians are pretty darn racist themselves. That’s perhaps one reason why you see Asians dating mostly whites when they date out of their race. They look down on blacks, Latinos and Arabs. And they look down on Asians outside of their own ethnicities. Immigrants bring over their hatreds with them from their mother countries. I agree with Sakamoto that in many cases, Asian parents would rather see their children date whites than other Asians if it’s outside their specific ethnicity. This is what they teach their kids. So there is definitely some learned racism IMO."

I agree completely with most of what you say, but you overlook one thing, Asians, blacks and Hispanics cannot act on their racism like the whites can because the latter have power. And why do the latter have power, because they are a majority. Make them a minority and they will probably become more bitter and racist, but they wont have the same power as they have today, because they will be the same as other minorities, unless of course minorities continue to worship whites.

"Has anyone talked about higher education yet? (If you have, I’ve missed it.) Not all Asian Americans are highly educated, of course, but let’s look at the ethnicities that are dating white guys the most. They are East Asian. (Japanese being the highest group to date out). East Asians who come to this country are usually highly educated and continue to pursue higher education. And who is in higher education? Other East Asians and whites."

South Asians as well, particularly Indians.

"Unless you’re at a UC (that’s University of California for those of you non-Californians), you’re surrounded by white people, so that’s who you’re going to date. An Asian friend of mine grew up in a town on the east coast that was about 90 percent white. He said it didn’t even occur to him to expect to see other people besides white people. Who did he date? White girls. People go with what you're used to/comfortable with. And unless they grow their own brains, they probably absorb their parents racist ideas."

Still an Asian guy dating a white woman is a rarity. Most white women will not date non-white men.

"Also, another thought: notice how American society treats Asians as sort of like whites? It's that model minority myth at work. You don't even read about us in the paper. Whenever there are medical studies or marketing surveys, it's just whites, blacks and latinos, because it's assumed that Asian people are like white people."

Depends on the skin shade. If it is dark they would treat you like black. However, it has its advantages. South Asians like me who are very dark skinned are rarely stopped at the airports here in the US, because they think I am African American.

"I think we should stay away from discussions that don't really reflect Asian Americans such as overseas Asians."

You cannot because every year we get close to 300,000 Asians coming into this country as immigrants and another 200,000 coming in as students, perhaps more. They are part of the American fabric.

I understand your point but I still think you're trying to point out something that has very little to do with the actual problem. It seems that while it could be a non-racial factor, it's rarely the reason.

Almost every Asian man knows at least one Asian female that fits into the racist group.

I'd rather not seriously get into this and save any real rebuttal bullets for my own xanga entry ( instead of wasting it here on a little comment box ), but I'd like to say all men prefer skinny girls over fat girls in general, but it's not so much an issue that would deter us from dating non-skinny girls, so you can eliminate that theory right off the bat.

Your other few points make sense, but we can easily point out that Asian girls like you ( and there's nothing wrong with Asian girls like you, let's get that clear ) give white guys a serious handicap and we've got enough pride not to chase after chicks that generally think we're losers. If an Asian girl thinks white guys are hot, that's her thing, but don't drag us into it thinking we'll get on our knees crying " please take us! We'll work twice as hard as that white guy ". After all, would you want a guy that had a personal prejudice ( or as it's like to be called " preference " ) against Asian girls? No, right? You'd walk away and go after the next fish in the pond, right? So that's why we do what we do.

And besides, we've got two nice ponds to dip into before we subject to ourselves to second-rate status:

1.) Fob girls love us and not necessarily for our passports either. It's nice to be with a girl who generally gives us a chance, listens to us, laughs at our jokes, and looks better than the girls here in the first place. No, this isn't the whole weight issue thing. Again, who would you choose from our point of view, someone who's not as good looking AND mean to you, or someone who's better looking AND nice to you? True, there's going to be sacrifices like being pressured to import their whole family from Cambodia or Guangzhou or whatever, and they won't necessarily understand my Star Wars jokes, but again I ask: so-so looking girl ( probably taller than 5'7" ) who thinks Asian guys are second class to white guys, or, hot looking girl under 5'3" spinner who loves Asian-American guys ( and who's better in bed, yes, I speak from experience )?

2.) Non-Asian girls love us, particularly Latina girls who can take me salsa dancing every Saturday night. Same logic as the fob girls, do we choose girls who don't give a rat's ass about us or do we go after the white/latina/black chicks that thinks Asian guys are awesome? Latina chicks are particularly worth the time invested because they're aggressive, passionate, fun, and seriously into trying a relationship ( to an unhealthy extent...:: nervous laugh :: ).

So you gals can have the white guys, we've got other boats to ride on. That kind of stuff used to piss me off until I got real with myself and started seeing all the good things out there waiting for me. Asian-American/Canadian girls are overrated. Sorry. It's not because you gals are Asian, or because you gals are a bit fat ( not really, but then again I live in Texas so my idea of fat is skewed )...it's because we've never been seriously wanted and that's the biggest turn-off ever.

Take care of yourself and your dream white guy.

Sincerely,
An Asian brother living in North America

Sorry. That was addressed to Julie Chen.

I posted back on the 8/19 and I thought the post was dead. I just checked and this guy can said something about Popeye and my Am as I Am. I didn't really get it, but then he didn't either so I guess we're even. Anywhite, I am a white male from Texas and everybody generally hates white males so I am used to it. I was just curious what other people thought so I read the post. My family would definitely prefer me to date white girls just like all the races. There's no difference here. I just don't know why everybody is so mad about it. That's fine, it's just a factor if you want to date another race. Oh well, peace and love and I hope you all find your true love.

I posted back on the 8/19 and I thought the post was dead. I just checked and this guy Ken (on I think 8/22/07) said something about Popeye and my Am as I Am post. I didn't really get it, but then he didn't really get it either so I guess we're both even. Anywhite, I am a white male from Texas and everybody generally hates white males so I am used to it. I was just curious what other people thought so I read the post. My family would definitely prefer me to date white girls just like all the races. There's no difference here. I just don't know why everybody is so mad about it. That's fine, it's just a factor if you want to date another race. Oh well, peace and love and I hope you all find your true love. Oh, I am covering my face in case I receive another Popeye blast or who knows what other kind of blast from him or maybe some other person.

Hey, it's Jesse again (WM). I went back and read some more posts but they are way too long to read all of them. I saw where Sakamoto and VC were slamming all over white people, but as I said we are all used to it. White people HAVE to shut up and not voice their opinion. All races are pretty much racist, it's just easier to see in other races besides your own. It's really an issue of individuals having pride and seeing through the eyes of their ownselves, and of course, everybody thinks they are the best. I've always known that everybody wanted to take over and get rid of the white race. Not really, they just want to be on top.

There's a concept in interest theory called the effective rate of interest - the overall rate of interest in a given time period, taking into account the effects of compounding. For example, if the rate of interest on a loan is 2.25% per quarter, the effective annual rate of interest is (1.0225)^4 - 1 = 9.31%. In a similar spirit, I define the effective fertility rate of Asian women as their actual fertility rate, taking into account the effects of miscegenation. I'm asking the question, "on average, how many Asian children do Asian women have?"

In 2004, the Census Bureau published a report on the fertility patterns of American women, with breakdowns by education level, race, marital status, and other variables. The report stated that Asian women 40-44 years of age had averaged 1.92 children born, and because so few women give birth after age 45, 1.92 is a good proxy for the fertility rate of Asian women. Already, this is below that needed to sustain a population (2.10).

Now add interracial marriage as a factor. We could use the overall figures for each of the ethnicities: 13.3% for Chinese women, 34% for Filipino women, 41.2% for Japanese women, 27.4% for Korean women, and 10.3% for Vietnamese women. However, in the long run, the relevant statistics are those for Asian women raised in a U.S. cultural context. Asian-Nation's data for U.S.-raised Asian women: 33.5% for Chinese, 52.1% for Filipinos, 31.6% for Japanese, 51.9% for Koreans, and 25.8% for Vietnamese. We could also use this table, which is for young (25-34) U.S.-raised Asian women. For 2nd-gen+ women: Chinese 44.7%, Filipinos 61.8%, Japanese 47.7%, Koreans 50.3%, Vietnamese 24.8%. Using the 2000 Census data shown here to estimate weights for each group, I conclude that approximately 48% of young, married, American-born Asian women are with a man outside their race, and that's being generous by assuming that marriages to hapas are same-race marriages.

It's dangerous to go from marriage statistics to birth statistics, as it's easily possible that AF/AM couples have more or less children than AF/WM couples, among other complications. It's also likely that young, 2nd-generation Asian women are having fewer children than their parents did, meaning that the fertility rate of 1.92 cited above should not be used. But content on making the roughest of estimates, I proceed from a non-Asian marriage rate of 48% to a non-Asian birth rate of 48%; that is, 48% of the children born to these women are multiracial. That makes the effective fertility rate, or the number of Asian children born per Asian woman, 1.92 * (100% - 48%) = 1.00. That would be the lowest in the world, aside from the Hong Kong SAR. It is less than half that needed to sustain a population. Only in the context of continued immigration, or infinite lifespans, could such a people survive. Could immigration continue indefinitely? No, because all East Asian countries except for North Korea and Mongolia have below-replacement fertility rates themselves.

Put simply, our current path guarantees our eventual disappearance from the United States and, in fact, from all Western nations. Certainly, times change, and in the decades to follow interracial marriage rates could decline drastically. They could also go up even more. The percentage of the population that is Asian will still be increasing for the foreseeable future, and that's one reason to believe that rates will decline, but the book Asian American X stated in its opening pages that interracial marriage rates are significantly higher for the third generation than for the second generation. If this is true, the effective fertility rate should decrease over time, as more and more remaining Asians are from the third or subsequent generations. Another possibility is that marriages to mixed-race Asians will cut into the interracial marriage rate, but there's little to say about that -- it may happen, it may not happen, it may cut into the intraracial marriage rate instead. Finally, it's possible that Amish-like Asian communities will emerge (Amish-like in that they separate themselves from the rest of society), or that after many generations pass, the Asians who survive will be selected for conservative, ethnocentric attitudes, and will thus be very unlikely to intermarry. Either possibility could be sufficient to prevent us from being wiped out, but neither would maintain us in large numbers, or elevate us from the marginal social status we occupy today.

When Asian males speak out against interracial marriage, they usually refer to the gender disparity, and to their losing the most desirable of their women. To them, it's a power/status thing, but that's only one aspect of the problem. More importantly, this is about the very survival of a people, and the data tell us we're losing, badly.

The Asian American community can barely sustain itself and if the US every decided to close it's borders, Asian Americans would disappear in a few generations. As harsh as it sounds, Asian women would be the cause of a destruction of a community.

"The Asian American community can barely sustain itself and if the US every decided to close it's borders, Asian Americans would disappear in a few generations. As harsh as it sounds, Asian women would be the cause of a destruction of a community."

If the US closes its borders Asian government will unload the US debt and we will all be living in the caves like the Germans and other whites used to live before Julius Ceaser civilized them.

I think you're referring to China and I think that China would want to keep people away from the US.

At any rate, China isn't going to unload all it's bonds and bankrupt the US as it'll destroy their own economy as well.

However, the US has every right to close their borders if they want. Every country can do whatever it wishes and currently, most conversative white Americans support the idea.

I believe Sakamoto had the right idea. Asian American men should just give up and go back to Asia. It seems that they'll be appraciated over there.

The fact of the matter is that Asian American women no longer need us or treat us as runnerup prizes after they've been rejected by white men or already cut loose with them and want to "settle" down. Asian guys are natural born suckers or as they say in the player community, "Average Fustrated Chumps."

Wake up, Asian guys.

"However, the US has every right to close their borders if they want. Every country can do whatever it wishes and currently, most conversative white Americans support the idea."

Look. I am an economist. It wont work. I have to disagree with you. Too much interdependence. Perhaps conservative white Americans are more concerned with racial suicide than economic suicide. However, let us face it. None of them will pick fruits, and the courts even this reactionary supreme court will not approve as constitutional any attempts to shut off one group of people or the other. Too much at stake here regarding the economics. So, in this regard you have it all wrong. White Americans will be living in the caves. Even eighty years closing off the borders created the Great Depression, and it is not going to happen.

If you were a sound economist, you'd have realized that China unloading it's bonds is impossible as I doubt they'll want to ruin thier economy just to help Asians in the US.

Regardless, my point being is that the Asian American community is just being replaced by immigrants and isn't really forming it's own identity.

Actually, I think there was a topic that stretched for over 200 comments. Same topic, of course. Ahhhhh, good to see the Asian Americans are still talking about the same crap they did in the 1980s.