Decades ago, East Asians (formerly known as Orientals) were stereotyped as smart. Before it was politicaly incorrect, the "smart stereotype" was cemented in the minds of Americans as belonging to genetics.

In addition, east asian men had to be labelled as morally inferior and villainous in order to justify the colonization of China, internment of Japanese during WW2, the Chinese Exclusion Act, and the war in Vietnam. Also war in Japan and Korea also has caused problems for East Asian men.

Men often choose women based upon physical traits -- and this may be resultant upon evolutionarily choosing a female mate based upon childbearing suitability (hence the preference for youthful looks), good genetics (beauty) and good health (good skin & hair).

Thus east asian women have been regarded as having good genetic stock. Darker skinned people have been unfairly stereotyped as having less worthy genes.

Recently due to the prominence of the tech boom, South Asian/Indians have proved themselves to whites as being equals in intelligence -- due to their success in technology, medicine, etc...

Thus South Asian women are also now coming onto American men's radar, as being likely to produce smart babies.

On TV, the matching of an asian woman with an "American" man may be more palatable to core demographic audiences than having depicting a positive/romantic asian man - "white" woman couple.

In addition, in order to appeal or appease an african american audience, it would be more "palatible" to "give" an asian woman to a black man rather than show a long term depiction of a black man and a white woman -- even though for representative depiction among interracial couples, BM/WF vastly outnumbers BM/AF.

Actually, knowing a number of Asian American men with African American women, I'm somewhat disappointed that our interest in the media always seems to focus on Asian American women with African American men.

Well, come to think of it, I really can't think of an example right now, and I suspect those few instances where it's depicted it's probably just played up for laughs, rather than exploring what such couples really go through.

I'm going to keep this short because if I start writing at length about the matter I'll wind up feeling disgusted by all media. Again.

Well Anon and Bryan, you guys seem to have overlooked the fact that while BM\WF outnumber BM\AF or AM\BF pairings as a percentage of the total number of 'couples' for BM\other or AM\other couples, the AF\WM pair-off is HUGH as a percentage of the total number of AF\others (over 98% of Asian women who marry non-Asians marry white men) and form a pretty significant block of the total number of 'coupled' Asian women (~30%). The thing that strikes me as odd is that the TV couple world would make you think that the AF/WM pairing was an oddity when in actuality it is the overwhelming majority of AF\other pairings. Art is NOT imitating life and life is NOT being represented in art. Why?

In America Maybe, but im Black and Have an Asian wife. Like the Black guy in the picture, I to am in the Military as well. From a Military point of view those of us who are stationed overseas such as Japan, Hawaii, and Korea would find this common. BM/AF couples. More BM/AF couples than whites. I understand in America its may be a different story. Pop Stars Amerie, Krystal Kaye, Kimora Lee Simmons, Denise Lawton, Mia J. along with Athletes Tiger Woods, Hines Ward, Chad and Johnnie Martin, Will Demps just to name a few is evidence that there are relationships among Asians/Black. I also know its certain Asians as well. Ive met Asian girls that said they could never date White guys and Vice Versa. I dont think the media is really focusing on BM/AF couples. Im sorry if you feel that way, but I disagree. If its white guys you want to see Asians with, or other Asians then feel relax, because thats really were all the attention is focused. Im sorry that when ever Black people are put in the spotlight it brings concerns from other people, but I think you are thinking to much.

Rinku Sen here, glad to see that others are also talking and thinking about this particular media representation. Check out my latest blog post on it at Racewire, the ColorLines blog (http:racewire.org), based on a speaking gig I did at the Public Square in Chicago last week. Got an interesting historical perspective there.

Please note that I'm not the one saying that Americans no longer notice. That is all from the mainstream media.

I should probably clarify this, that I'm interested more in the matter of who and what Hollywood chooses to present.

A questioner, I'm not overlooking 'the statistics', but I'm more interested in the fact that if we do decide to show healthy relationships between inter-racial couples that the experiences of my friends remain largely shoved into the margins, and that as a nation, and as a world, we lose something when those stories, those perspectives aren't heard, aren't seen, whether as ficitonal or non-fictional accounts.

Lets just clear this up with reality and remove the pc-speak to look at this candidly.

There are vastly more BM/WF couples in reality, and this pairing has endured the MOST extreme ostracism through history.

Black men have the highest preference for interracial marriage, followed perhaps by white men, and then by asian men.

Since a black male audience would like to see black men paired with women of other races on TV and media, the mainstream media would LEAST want to picture and portray black males with white women.

The reason for this is that the main TV demographic that the mainstream media caters to are socially conservative whites, also many whites in general don't want to see BM/WF relations touted on TV.

And in addition, interracial pairings of men with asian women cause the LEAST CONTROVERSY in the mainstream media and mainstream society.

Remember this controversy:
(http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,15376,00.html)
During a 2004 Superbowl commercial, blonde Nicollette Sheridan is half naked with Terrel Owens. -- And this caused a huge uproar. Would it have been so controversial if Terrel Owens was paired with a half naked black, hispanic, indian, or asian woman?

Not likely.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

"Although mixed-race partnering has increased, the United States still shows huge disparities between African American male and African American female endogamy statistics. The 1990 census reports that 17.6% of African American marriages occur with White Americans. Yet African American men are 2.5 times more likely to be married to white women than African American women to white men. In the 2000 census, 239,477 African American male to white female and 95,831 white male to African American female marriages were recorded, again showing the 2.5-1 ratio. Despite this, slightly more white men are married than white women. There is also a disparity between Asian American women and Asian American men largely due to the +51% greater absolute numbers of Asian American women in the US as opposed to men, according to the 2000 census.

A Black-Asian couple's engagement photo.Asian American women were +250% more likely to be married to a White American man than Asian American men married to a white woman; but, the absolute numbers of Asian American women are only +51% more than men among the six largest Asian ethnic groups.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, Asian American women of the 1.5 generation were +76% more likely to be married to a white man than Asian American men of the 1.5 generation married to a white woman, but the absolute numbers of 1.5 generation Asian American women is +56% more than Asian American men.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, the number of Asian Americans married to non-Asians is +246% more for Asian American females as opposed to males among the six largest Asian American ethnic groups.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, the number of 1.5 generation Asian Americans married to non-Asians among the six largest Asian ethnic groups is +56% more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men, but the absolute numbers of 1.5 generation Asian American women is +56% percent more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men.[4]

With African Americans and Asian Americans, the ratios are even further imbalanced, with +598% percent more Asian female/Black male couples than Asian male/Black female couples according to the 2000 US Census for the six largest Asian American ethnic groups, but the absolute numbers of Asian American women are +51% percent more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men among the six largest Asian ethnic groups.[4] Asian Americans of the 1.5 generation and of the five largest Asian American ethnic groups had Black male/Asian female marriages +222% more than Asian male/Black Female relationships.[4] Even though the disparity between Blacks and Asian interracial marriages by gender is high according to the 2000 US Census, the total numbers of Asian/Black interracial marriages are low, numbering only 2.2% percent for Asian male marriages and 10.2% percent of Asian female marriages.[4]

The interracial disparity for American Indians is low. According to the 1990 US Census (which only counts indigenous people with US-government-recognized tribal affiliation), American Indian women interrmarried White Americans +2% percent more than American Indian men married White women.[5]"

not having sorted thru all of Anon's numbers yet, let me say this:

first - it is impractical (if not intellectually dishonest) to compare absolute numbers. the differences in population counts (african americans to asian americans to white americans) makes such comparison useless. 100,000 white americans is a small percentage of their absolute population (~70%) compared to asians (~7%) so when you compare NUMBERS you quickly get screwy results.

second - i think i clearly stated that the PERCENTAGE of asian men and african american women who 'out marry' are much lower than the number of asian women or african american men who 'out marry' ...and i mean percentage of their respective groups.

third - while not trying to render the 'off shore military base' experience irrelevant, i think it is obvious that in asian countries OF the asian women that are NOT married to asian men, they will be married to a male sample that more reflects the demographics of the availble non-asian male pool - or the male soldiers. given that and the fact that african americans are disproportionately represented in the military compared to their percentage of the total population (in the USA), there will be a much larger percentage of AA men married to asian women. You have a 'skewed' sample in a unnaturally controlled environment. no good.

third - i am not upset that blacks and asians are shown together on TV; i don't know how you got that from what i wrote (but it might be interesting to discuss why you 'assumed' that). i think it is good if it helps to dispel what i think (and seemed to be validated by Sen's anecdotes in the article) an undue tension or hostility between the groups (asian- and african- americans).

My question was WHY do you think that popular media is portraying these couples (black\asian) given that the reality of the situation is that there are many, many, many times more white/asian couples?

Given the media crafted picture, you cannot help but ask yourself "Why do they not want to show asian/asian relationships? or black/black relationships?" and "why do they not seem to show what is the overwhelming majority of asian/other relationships - asian women/white men - a paring which unto itself has generated pages and pages of blog write on yellow/rice fever and fetishism?"

If blacks do marry outside their race It more than likely would be someone of hispanic origin. How accurate are consensus taken.

BM/BF is often shown in commercials and movies.

WM/AF is also often shown: Joy Luck Club, Red Doors, ad infinitum --- far, far more often than AM/AF -- especially attractive AM/AF couples in a romantic, positive context.

BM/WF is not often shown on TV or movies.

To state the obvious, non-white male/WF is still, on average, fairly rare.

Again, AM/AF or AM/female-anyrace -- in a POSTIVE context, is the most rare.

In fact, on TV, check out the latest Battlestar Galactica series. The main Asian Female character is an enemy cylon traitor who has 2 white boyfriends.

If we get out of the mainstream media bubble, the reality is that AM/AF couples far, far outnumber WM/AF couples.

By not showing AM/AF relations in a non-villainous way -- in any representive number similar to WM/AF, it is jarringly obvious that there is a real pattern of racism towards asian men in the media. The White media regards asian men as hated sexual competitive threats for white and asian women -- probably because asian men are seen as viable providers with good jobs, or maybe asian men are resented as economic competition.

Anon,

you seem to miss the point. first, let's stick to TV and media that is not derived from books. Joy Luck Club is derived form Amy Tan's book - and it should not escape you that she, an asian woman, in control of the story, has romantic relationships between AF and WM. damn! there we go again!

you are correct, AM/AF couples outnumber any other AM or AF pairing. this is true for all groups - asian, blacks, whites, latinos. it makes sense doesn't it?

and as for commercials - these don't create any 'characters' of note or depth so the 'audience' doesn't feel as though they 'know' any commercial characters. in fact, commercials TRY to look as 'real life' as possible, so that people get the "that could be me" feeling and identify with the product. to whit, there are Am\AF couples on commercials and rarely mixed race couples.

IF 'media' was so concerned about asian men as sexual competition for white men, why wouldn't they show WM/AF couples to reinforce their dominance?

why show a series of relationships that are not representative of the actual society (American)?

Anon, you've touted the number of BM\WF relationships in society, yet TV media rarely shows that without the relationship being at or near the 'heart' of the story. what's up with that?

I, like Sen, don't buy the 'we didn't even notice' line. too much coincidence.

so let's get all 'conspiracy theorist' here: why not show AM/AF couples? because if you showed stable, working AND sexy AM, white women might say "hey, he's not so bad..." (hence Daniel Kim - sexy guy of Lost) Why make all the BM/AF couples? ...which so far have ended up poorly... To throw AM 'off the trail' of the real 'hunter' (WM) and reinforce the notion of 'go with a black guy and you're headed for trouble'? (except Burke on Grey's Anatomy, but we will see how that turns out) To make AM's 'rebel' against those 'crazed, sex mad black guys' in the real world?

and as if to reinforce this Superman's Bizarro World of Love, there is yet another new show which has... ta da!!! a black male married to an asian woman! another coincidence?

lastly Anon, your comment about whom blacks 'should marry' if they marry outside their race hints at a less than subtle bias that begins to define the vein from which your other opinions draw blood.

What? You don't make any sense.

And your hostility is repulsive.

Bryan,

i agree with you. why not show the full range of things, not just a sensationalized or one-dimensional view...or worse yet, a view which largely does not exist.

Someone wrote in one post that Black Men prefer to see themselves with women of different races. Thats not exactly true. If you watch movies with All Black writers, and Producers the leading Lady will be Black. "Mississippi Massala" was a movie with a Black Man/Asian Women lead. The Writer, Produder and Directer of that Movie was a Indian Women. The Producers of shows like ER are white, or Jewish. I know LOST
has a Half Black/ Half Asian writer. No one looks at the source. 97 percent of Blacks marry Blacks. The movie "Face" the story of a Chinese girl falling in love with a Black Guy was written, produced and directed by a Chinese woman. BLack Americans are not writing these scripts, or promoting them. Its either Asian, or whites writing these scripts. The relevence I see with this couple here in ER is that the lady is British Indian and He is in the Military, A relationship with an Asian not from America. My wife is Asian, but not Asian American . Some what like the relationship with me and my wife. That was the relevance I was making A Questioner. So I guess the question is why pair women of different colors with black men? I think the reason is because these people know other people will watch and boost ratings.

Notwithstanding BM/AF coupling on "ER" and "Grey's", WM/AF coupling is far more common on TV, film and advertisements.

Likewise, BM/WF coupling is far more common than BF/WM, esp. on television.

Otoh, of all the race/genders - only AMs are rarely partnered with anyone.

The reason why there has been BM/AF coupling (even though it is very rare in the US - according to the Census data) on television is due to the default casting of minorities - BMs to represent blacks and AFs to represent Asians.

where did you get this from?

third - while not trying to render the 'off shore military base' experience irrelevant, i think it is obvious that in asian countries OF the asian women that are NOT married to asian men, they will be married to a male sample that more reflects the demographics of the availble non-asian male pool - or the male soldiers. given that and the fact that african americans are disproportionately represented in the military compared to their percentage of the total population (in the USA), there will be a much larger percentage of AA men married to asian women. You have a 'skewed' sample in a unnaturally controlled environment. no good.

A Questioner:

This comment is not accurate. Obviously you never been over here to see why some of these Asian girls make some of the choices they make. From my experience there are a lot of Asian girls overseas that do not date White Guys/ or Black. With Hip Hop culture hitting the forefront through out the world. Girls in a lot of these Asian countries have developed a fetish for Black Dudes. There are just as many whites/ Hispanics in the Miltary as blacks. The point im making is its a matter of choice. Not because Black make up the so called largest portion of the U. S. Military. I do agree with you on one thing. Yes AA /AF make up 95 percent of the Marriages. True, My sister-in-law was pissed when me and my wife started dating. She is Japanese to the core. She hates the Western World and despises the U. S. Military. When my wife was pregnant with our first child it upsetted her, but after my son was born you couldnt keep her away from our house. There are a lot of Asian Women that feel that way. I just want to say to the person that said the mainstream media is trying to appease the black audience is ignorant. Remember blacks do not have faith in the mainstream media. We have our own media BET, UPN, Comedy Central in a sense(joke) Our own TV Shows, and music that for some reason keeps going mainstream. Shows like "ER" is not a show that blacks even watch first of all, Well maybe some. I think you have to look elsewhere for answers(directed at anyone). Call NBC and CBS, ask them why they keep doing this. I dont have a clue. Some people in this room are blaming the Black Community for this. Im not pointing any fingers at anyone, but research the project (writers, producers, Directors) before you make some of these statements.

Hello dontnukeit and others,

I'd like to try and make my remarks clearer, so they are not miscontrued or misinterpreted. And in alot of ways, my response is not necessarily a "disagreement post."

To clarify my point is this:
Why is the media showing BM in interracial relationships, but disproportionately under-representing BM/WF couples?

If these stats are correct: "The 1990 census reports that 17.6% of African American marriages occur with White Americans. Yet African American men are 2.5 times more likely to be married to white women than African American women to white men."

In the bigger picture of America, BM/WF couples should be represented more on TV than BM/AF couples -- but that won't happen for obvious reasons.

(I'd like to stress that there is nothing wrong with interracial relationships as long as racism is not involved.)

The likely answer is that:

* -- the corporations and mainstream media want to avoid controversy,

* -- want to appease their main demographic audiences,

* -- and the media depictions also reflect the minds & fantasies of the producers, writers, and directors.

In addition, interracial relationships involving AF's are the least controversial on TV because they are depicted the most often. Are some people upset that ER doesn't show AF/WM and then extrapolates that to the rest of TV? That's nonsense. TV and movies have often shown AF/WM couples. Battlestar Galactica is one big example currently showing, and there are others.

What is so wrong with casting BM/AF relationships? Nothing. But just like with the white reaction to affirmative action, the idea of the writers may have been to kill 2 birds with one stone. Show "diversity" credentials and deflect criticisms of racism by showing a black man in an interracial relationship, but NOT with a white woman (or white-jewish -- if as indicated, that really reflects the ethnicities of the male writers).

The point is that if you look at the pattern of depiction, you can tell that the mainstream media has a real problem in depicting postive/romantic/attractive AM/AF, AM/non-asian, and WF/non-white couples. From the pattern, one can determine from the evidence, the racism in the mainstream media.

The pattern of evidence shows a racist bias against postive/attractive depictions of AM heterosexuality, and of WF "miscegenation."

First, I think you have to separate TV from movies. Movies tend to be much more adventurous in terms of topics, casting, 'controversy', etc. Their audience more actively 'chooses' to attend, so there is less 'backlash'.

That said, of all of these recent posts, i think 'bean' may have hit the nail on the head! There is obviously a lack of asian men being cast in major TV productions so there are few asian men to draw upon; there are also few (but still more than asian men!) black women cast as primary or lead characters in major TV productions - except when the premise of the show is that they ARE black women. So IF people of colour are to have romantic interests on these programs, they inevitably HAVE to be paired and all that is left is AF/BM!

I think that Battlestar Gallactica is somewhat outside the loop. It has a somewhat 'fringe' audience (not a major network) and it is set in some fantastical 'future' where all types of 'unbeleivable stuff' happens. The same is true of Star Trek and similar programs.

As for the military thing - i NEVER said that blacks made up the MAJORITY of the military population - that would be damn close to impossible as blacks only make up 14 - 15% of the US population (not that TV would make you think that!). I said that they are DISPROPORTIONATELY represented - which you 'confirmed' if you say that "there are as many hispanics and whites in the military as blacks". Blacks and Hispanics would have to be overrepresented in the military if they had equal percentages to whites. If that is correct and assuming a 30%/30%/30% split (assume the other 10% to be Native American and Asian American), Blacks and Latinos would show up at twice their percentage in the military as they do in the general population since hispanics are only 14 - 15% of the US population as well. Thus two populations that make up only 28 - 30% of the US population are ~60% of the military.

[I often find it annoying when news coverage of 'our troops' on some 'in-depth' program manages to show few minorities as 'patriotic boys defending our liberties' when IF they selected in accordance with actual demographics they would have shown probably 30% minorities or more, but that is another thread.]

As for Japan or otehr-than-US statistics, the fact that some Asian girls have a 'black fetish' or whatever is irrelevant. Why they marry black men is immaterial, the point is that they do and they do so in much higher percentages OUTSIDE the US (especially at or near military bases). Personally, I think that is fine. They can marry whomever makes them happy.

Now Anon's 9/23 post hit some interesting points too. Is there merit in the theory that pairing AFs with non-Asians will create less controversy than pairing any other F 'outside her race'? If true, why? Are AM impotent to complain? Are AFs not likely to complain (since in the US they already do 'out marry' at a rate behind only to Jews and white Hispanics). I also like the thought that to show "miscegenation" amongst white women appears to be largely taboo on TV - unless a bad outcome is also depicted, thus warning against such actions. AND the big question of "WHY NO ASIAN MEN???" still remains.

So, TV still shows interracial relationships in ways that are NOT reflective of real life and does not often show either in a positive light (BM/BF) or in any light (AM/AF).

For the record, the lead writer or 'creator' of Gray's Anatomy is a black woman. And she has taken some major steps to expand and 'humanize' the character of Dr. Bailey, the loud, tough black doctor who bosses tne interns. That is a good thing.

"AND the big question of "WHY NO ASIAN MEN???" still remains."

In Beerfest, a south asian man hooks up with a black woman. So there's your asian man/black woman representation.

The writer, or producer on Greys Anatomy is Half-Asian. Look at her picture. If im wrong then I stand corrected. Someone said 18 percent of Blacks were married to whites. I otherhand looked at a consensus that said otherwise. Its no were near 18 percent. Thats why I do not put so much faith in consensus. They are not always so accurate. The question is WHERE ARE THE ASIAN MEN. Well i guess we need more Asian men in Hollywood at the helm. Maybe its time for an AET. A 24 HOUR Asian channel. Hollywood will never change.

oops, wrong again, IM thinking of "LOST"

i think I clearly said that MOVIES (i.e. Beerfest) are an exception because they (movies) tend to be more controversial and 'edgy' in as much as the audience pays to attend and in so doing 'accepts' the 'risks' inherent thereto. Also, a single movie or bit character does not negate the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If there is an asian man shagging a black woman in "Beerfest" GREAT!!! There is a pretty strong vein of anti-black sentiment in the south asian community in the US. Maybe that will help erase that in some small way. [As an aside, you've got to think about where you spend your entertainment $$] I think it was last season on Gray's Anatomy that a south asian guy banged Meredith (Gray) for an episode. Does that negate the fact that there is a paucity of asian men on prime time TV? I don't think so.

I don't think there is any 'consensus' data on marriage rates. People are or are not married to someone. There is no 'consensus' aspect to it - much like there is no 'consensus' needed to 'pass' the law of gravity. Opinions are irrelevant. I am betting the word was 'Census' data. The 18% sounds high, but is possible if you count blacks married to hispanics - of which there are 'white' and 'non-white' categories.

Still standing after all this jibber jabber are the facts that PRIME TIME TV seems to want to 'represent' a BM/AF couple rate that is NOT present (not even close!) in society and that asian men are largely invisible. Why??

The assertion that films take more "risks" in casting (particularly of IR relationships) than TV shows is false.

The reason why the film "Hitch" didn't have a BF lead/love interest was that the producers were afraid of the film being seen as a "black" film.

The reason why "Hitch" didn't have a WF lead/love interest was b/c the producers were afraid that a portion of the WM audience would be turned off.

A HF (albeit basically a non-Nordic WF), ended up as the compromise choice in casting opposite Will Smith.

With budgets in the tens of millions - big studio pics tend to be really conservative.

Otoh, TV shows, esp, ones with large casts, can take risks with casting of love interests.

BM/WF couplings have been quite common on television (much more so than WM/BF) - "24"; "Sex in the City"; "ER"; "Grey's Anatomy"; "My Name is Earl"; Desperate Housewives;
"The Practice"; "Ally McBeal"; "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"; "Angel"; "One Tree Hill"; "LAX"; etc.

With AFs - the WM/AF coupling is most common on television: "Gilmore Girls"; "Ally McBeal"; Beverly Hills 90201"; "Coupling"; "Malcom in the Middle"; "Battlestar Gallactica": "Deep Space Nine"; "Enterprise"; "King of the Hill"; "The Single Guy"; "Flight 29 Down"; "Malibu Dreams"; etc. and virtually almost every single crime show and many of the most popular sitcoms/comedies("Friends"; "Seinfeld"; Sex in the City) have shown WM/AF couples.

There has yet to be an Asian-American couple on television (the Asian couple on "Lost" aren't American).

DEAN:

You hit it on the spot. You get 2 TV shows with a Black and Asian love interest the ratings go up, and the world goes crazy(men). Why dont Asian men complain about the Shows with all the AF/WM interest. You have to admit, Black Males have a Gigantic influence on trends, and Pop Culture in America. That relates to Prime Time. Consensus, Census, its all a bogus survey to me.
"Hitch" was written by white producers. "Drumline", "Love and Basketball was wriiten by blacks for blacks, but crossovered like "Joy Luck Club", which was written and produced by an Asian women. So why theres not more Amy Tans in the industry. Theres answer to why there are no leading Asian men on Prime Time. More than likely there is a lack of Asian writers, Directors and Producers in Hollywood to write these scripts. Once that Happens then you will see a change. If you are waiting for mainstream America to do it then you are saddenly mistaken. African American Producers had to respond to all the negative roles Blacks were getting in the past. The spike Lees of the world soon emerged. This is just my opinion from Minority to Minority

DEAN:

You hit it on the spot. You get 2 TV shows with a Black and Asian love interest the ratings go up, and the world goes crazy(men). Why dont Asian men complain about the Shows with all the AF/WM interest. You have to admit, Black Males have a Gigantic influence on trends, and Pop Culture in America. That relates to Prime Time. Consensus, Census, its all a bogus survey to me.
"Hitch" was written by white producers. "Drumline", "Love and Basketball was wriiten by blacks for blacks, but crossovered like "Joy Luck Club", which was written and produced by an Asian women. So why theres not more Amy Tans in the industry. Theres answer to why there are no leading Asian men on Prime Time. More than likely there is a lack of Asian writers, Directors and Producers in Hollywood to write these scripts. Once that Happens then you will see a change. If you are waiting for mainstream America to do it then you are saddenly mistaken. African American Producers had to respond to all the negative roles Blacks were getting in the past. The spike Lees of the world soon emerged. This is just my opinion from Minority to Minority

so who is upset at the depiction of BM/AF couples?

shoiwng numerous BM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

showing WM/AF couples is logical given the reality of American society.

NOT showing AM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

Why is TV being 'illogical' given the reality of American society.

We have a suggested answer for the lack of AM roles - no writers\directors\producers to champion the casting of AMs in lead roles. What about the other (BM/AF)? Do yo think blacks in TV-land (of which there are not that many in the behind the scenes decision manking position) are banging the drum to show BM/AF couples? or do you think TV-land is staying away from the potential backlash (from WM and BF) of showing BM/WF couples?

Hollywood writers, producers and studio execs (of which a vast majority are white) of television shows - in the last 2 decades don't seem to have a problem with casting BMs in major roles (pretty much every single drama - "CSI"; "CSI Miami"; "24"; Law & Order"; "Law & Order SVU"; "Lost";
"West Wing"; "Cold Case"; "NYPD Blue";
"ER"; "JAG"; "Alias"; "Smallville"; Angel"; "What I Like About You"; etc. or even depicting BM/WF couples.

BFs, in comparison to BMs, are underrepresented on television (but that's the way it is in a male-dominated Hollywood EXCEPT for when it comes to Asian-Americans - where Asian-Am female roles outnumber that for Asian-AM males).

(Btw, "Joy Luck Club" wasn't exactly a film which portrayed Asian males positively nor is Amy Tan known for depicting Asian males other than in a negative light. Nevertheless, it was the studio which had the cold, heratless "skinflint" husband changed from that of a WM, as it was in the novel, to an Asian-Am male.)

Regarding BM/AF depictions on TV and in films - there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, it is disturbing when they are more frequent than that of Asian-Am couples (of which there has yet to be one), especially when you look at the demographics.

According to the US Census - only 1.2% of married Asian-Am females are married to BMs, and yet this is a more common pairing than that of AAM/AAF.

(On "Lost" - the producers/writers were originally going to have Sun leave Jin for Michael).

In the last 2 decades, the number and types of portrayals of BMs, HMs (basically white Hispanic) and even gay males has advanced in Hollywood.

The one group that seems to get left behind is that of Asian-Am males.

so what do asian and asian american women say about all of this?

are asian american men especially annoyed that black men are getting the 'play' on TV now?

Oh, on the BM/WF relationships, I think most of those relationships cited (McBeal, ER, etc) ended up failing and didn't last. too often it seemed that the racial difference was key to the existence of the relationship on the show. the longest running, (relatively) well-functioning B/W relationship I remember on TV was the neighbors to George and Weezy Jefferson; it was WM\BF...but he was British and what do those damn foreigners know about good relationships!

nicely enough on Grey's Anatomy, the Burke\Yang relationship is more driven by neat vs. messy, although this season we will get the parents of Burke 'surprising' our couple. i have been disturbed by the recent spate of 'let's show black people as bigoted too' movies and shows (like that Bernie Mack movie last year and the 'something different' movie). this has not been the case in my experience. you may not get kissed and slobbered over on your first encounter, but no one will burn a cross on your lawn either.

Funny you mention Lost, I was 'smelling' that Sun/Michael thing brewing mid-season, but i bet they were worried about getting rolled by Asian men if they gave up yet another women to a black guy. That would have clearly looked like some sort of 'collusion' or something.

It's not that BMs are getting 'play' now - but that BM/AAF coupling is more frequent than AAM/AAF, even though it is actually a rarity (BM/AAF coupling, in addition to AAM/AAF coupling and AAM/BF coupling would be preferable).

(Btw, BMs have always gotten "play" with BFs on television. AAMs have yet to even reach that stage.)

I see you have done your research. There are, or were shows like Jaime Fox, Girlfriends, Moesha and the list goes on of Black oriented sitcoms. Theres an array of Black Producers, Writers and Directors. The point Im making is where are the Asian writers in Hollywood?

How is it illogical. I can see if there were not any marriages between BM/AM then your point would could be argueable, You point cant be made with the evidence submitted by Dean. Most Prime time shows do depict Asian Females with white men. More than AM/AF couples. I dont hear you saying that is illogical. Why is it always the show with the BM as the lead man getting all the attention and high ratings. Look at Grace Park on Battle Star Gallactica. Im waiting for that blog. I personaly know a Black DR. married to an Asian Women. Allen Keyes the Black republican wife is also Indian. So how is it illogical? Its just two sitcoms. 1.2 percent AF married to BM, 2 primtimes sitcoms. I feel that logical.

so what do asian and asian american women say about all of this?

You are going to get mixed reviews, I hear it all the time. some will be for it, some will be against it. I beginning to think Rinku Sen dates black guys.

And I really don't buy the quote from the producer of ER, who says of the two Asian woman-black man couples he's had on his show, "Honestly, we really don't even talk about it or consider that it's an interracial couple."

TV is so white, how can you not notice?

Maybe he classifies both partners as "colored" in his mind, and doesn't explore beyond that?

Dontnuke, here is what i posted:

"showing numerous BM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

showing WM/AF couples is logical given the reality of American society.

NOT showing AM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society."

So i think i have acknowledged and agree that the lack of AM\AF couples is a glaring error (i.e. "illogical"). As an aside, I think you will have a long wait before you see ANY BM/AM "couples" on TV, but I digress.

Please name the current MAJOR NETWORK programs which have a continuing AF\WM couple that is more than just 'background decoration' for the show? I am not as rabid a TV watcher as many here seem to be, so I just don't know.

I think to try to equate the number of TV shows (and I don't believe I've ever narrowed it down to 'sitcoms') to the percentage of 'couples' of a given type in the US population is valid. To make such a comparison you would need to compare the percentage of regularly occuring 'character couples' (i.e. AF/WM) with the percentage of real world couples.

Here is the gist of my observation (stay with me here!):

1 - there is a MAJOR UNDER-REPRESENTATAION of AM/AF couples on MAJOR TV when compared to real life. WHY?

2 - there is an OVER-REPRESENTATION of BM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today compared to real life. WHY?

3 - there is an UNDER-REPRESENTATION of WM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today WHEN COMPARED to the actual percentages in real life.

You are correct that there are a number of black-themed shows on TV, but you seem to group together programs which are currently being broadcast with those that have been cancelled. This is misleading - it 'over counts' the level oof representation of the group. You will also note that I do not believe that ANY of the 'black themed' shows you listed include a BM/AF couple (as recurring characters) or BF/AM for that matter. So WHY on shows largely headed by WHITES (not ALL but MOST) are there so many BM/AF couples? You would think that IF these shows are 'controlled' by White Men AND that white men wanted to show their control and dominence over Asian Men, that the shows would have WM/AF couples wouldn't you??

But they don't; so I suspect that something else is afoot here. What could it be?????

Oh, Dean, it is OBVIOUS that BM would take the dominant role as the mate for BF on TV shows. MOST of the couples that we see on TV are 'race matched' - EXCEPT where Asian men are concerned.

And let no one be misled, blacks do not even begin to have a MAJOR role in the writing, directing, casting or producing of TV shows EVEN those that star Black people. Its like pro sports - you can play but you can't own.

Anon, do you have a problem with Sen's dating choices?

"Oh, Dean, it is OBVIOUS that BM would take the dominant role as the mate for BF on TV shows. MOST of the couples that we see on TV are 'race matched' - EXCEPT where Asian men are concerned."

That's my whole point (imagine what the reaction would be from the African-American community if all the BF characters were paired with WM (or other non-BMs) or all the WFs were paired with BMs (or other non-WMs).

Aside from "ER" and "Grey's Anatomy" which depict AF/BM - the most common pairing on TV (and in movies) have been AF/WM.

Many of the producers on “black” shows are white (i.e. – “Girlfriends”). Nevertheless, BMs are represented in many “general audience” shows on television and on Madison Ave. (which is very white).

YES, the lack of AM/AF couples on TV is not right, nor is the lack of AM roles in general, but BM/AF couples are not the cause of that and Black writers, producers, directors are not the cause of this. Has the asian community complained about the lack of AM/AF couples on TV? If there were an explosion of BF/WM couples, there might indeed by some outcry from the black community. I think there would be some noise if it was BM/WF too. Where is the asian community's voice regarding AF/non-Asian male couples? One thing that would have to be discussed in the AF/WM isseu is that there IS a significant REAL WORLD couple rate of that mix. Why is that? For AFs to complain would ring a bit hollow.

The most common pairing on TV is not AF/WM. the most common is WM/WF. Other than the current Battlestar Gallactica (which I personally don't consider 'major media') what are the current programs with a recurring AF/WM couple that is central to the plot? the almost 'comic concubine' fiasco on Desperate Housewives is something I don't even begin to get. a menage a trois??

Think about the underlying message to BW as a result of the BM/AF mushroom - that BW are not desireable to even BM. The same message would appear to be on the agenda for AM.

So what do you think is the motivation for showing something that is 'not' - BM/AF couples and NOT showing something that 'is' - WM/AF, BM\WF and AM/AF couples?

I don't think anyone here is decrying the fact that there are BM/AF portrayals - but rather that the Hollywood system continues to avoid the portrayal of AMs as love interests (with females of any race/ethnicity), including African-Am producers (such as Shonda Rhimes of "Grey's Anatomy").

Gay AM characters, btw, were fairly common on "black" sitcoms like "Half and Half" and "Girlfriends."

There is an outcry about the lack/negative portrayals of Asian-Am males (as well as females) on television, and in particular, with regard to the portrayal of AF/WM in lieu of any AF/AM portrayals.

The most common pairing (with regard to Asian-Am characters) is AF/WM.

As I have stated AF/WM couplings have appeared in shows like "Beverly Hills 90201"; "Gilmore Girls"; "Malcolm in the Middle"; "The Single Guy"; "Pepper Dennis"; "Coupling"; "Ally McBeal";
"Deep Space Nine";
"Enterprise"; "Relic Hunter"; etc...

to any number of dramas/sitcoms which include guest roles with AFs (in dramas - the theme usually is that of the AF wanting to escape from oppressive AMs and be saved by a "white knight"...

to teen shows like "Flight 29 Down", "Suite Life of Zach and Cody" and "Malibu Dreams."

There is no danger of BFs beginning to think that they are not desireable to BMs (there are countless TV show, films, videos, etc. which portray BM/BF couples).

The reason why there have been a few portrayals of AF/BM couplings is that the "de facto" casting of minorities for the sake of diversity is AF and BM (at the cost of AMs and BFs) - which often leads to their coupling since Hollywood thinks it's being progressive by showing such couplings.

Hollywood is filled with closet racists.

Well if its the White men trying to use black men to dominate The Asian Mans image im lost. Why are female Asian Film makers producing such Movies as "Face" and "Mississippi Masala"? Not White, not Black, but Asian females. Why do media moguls such as Oliver Wang "O" DUB, and Jeff Chang, 2 very well known writers promotes Black culture to Asians? Did you ever think why Rinku Sen did an article on this topic? The world is changing Black people set the trends in America. We always have. Thats why theres success with Black Americans in Hollywood. Hollywood cares for one thing and one thing only, Ratings. Ive never watch a show of ER, or Greys Anatomy like 98 percent of all other Black Americans. Obviously, a lot of Asian tune in. Questioner, BM/AF are not overrepresented, stop hating. That couldnt be further from the truth. 2 shows, 2 louzy shows and everyone thinks Hollywood has gone BM/AF crazy. There are BM/AF marriages. Yes Qustionar, there are. Im living proof of that and countless others. Yes there are more WM/AM couplings but 1.2 Percent of 45 million gives you what. well you do the Math. Thats not counting overseas were its crazy rediculous. Even my white friends make jokes about us and Asian females over here because its thick. The point im making is BM/AF are not overrepresented. Its just 2 shows. Whites are really overrepresented. All the sitcoms, all the movies. I mean lucy liu never dated an Asian guy in any of her movies, All white, So whats the Problem. So look around and you will see. Im sorry that the 2 shows you like happen to have BM/AF relationships. Why dont you give such shows as BattleStar Galactica, Gilmore Girls and Malcom in the Middle a chance. Then you will see how wrong your rhetoric is. Yes Dean you are right. There are some Black oriented shows that have white producers, but still there are some that do not. The Bernie Mac show, Bernie Mac writes a lot of the material for his sitcom. Only Asians can remedy any kind of Stereotypes of Asians in Hollywood. Once an influx of Asian Directors, Writers and Producers set up shop and distribute their brand of entertainment in Hollywood, you will see the end of a lot of this jargon weve been discussing.

BM/AF couples arent overrepresented. i can hardly even remember the number of these couples ive ever seen in the media. DONTNUKEIT is correct. I'm disgusted at the way some asians are so shocked and get all angry at seeing one or two black men date one or two asian girls, as if it's "the last straw" or something. Why is it the "last straw"? Why is it worse than a white guy/asian girl couple. In my opinion its probably BETTER. At least you know the girls not selling out or giving into peer pressure. The asian man issue is separate and i agree there seems to be alot of prejudice against us. but for gods sake lets not start hating on black people.

BM/AF couples are more acceptable to the racist white society. In reality, proportion to their population, there are more WM/AF couples than BM/AF couples. By a long shot. However, showing WM/AF couples on shows is not acceptable to whites, particularly white women and teen girls. Hence, they show the BM/AF couple as in Grey's Anatomy.

BM/AF couples are more acceptable to the racist white society. In reality, proportion to their population, there are more WM/AF couples than BM/AF couples. By a long shot. However, showing WM/AF couples on shows is not acceptable to whites, in particular the racist white women and racist white teen girls who watch these shows. Perhaps reminds them of too many Asian women or girls they know dating white men they had eyes on. Hence, they show the BM/AF couple as in Grey's Anatomy.

1. there is a MAJOR UNDER-REPRESENTATAION of AM/AF couples on MAJOR TV when compared to real life. WHY?

AM/AF not generally considered American. George Allen echoed white attitudes when he said welcome to America to a person of Indian origin born and brought up in Virginia.

2 There is an OVER-REPRESENTATION of BM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today compared to real life. WHY?

Answer: Both happen to be non-white and the attitude among the racist white population is let them screw themselves as long as they dont contaminate white blood. In fact, the TV may be trying to encourage non-white pairings and leave the white people alone. Dont be surprised if the Survivor Show is divided into white and non-white next season. Two white groups and two non-white groups perhaps.

3 - there is an UNDER-REPRESENTATION of WM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today WHEN COMPARED to the actual percentages in real life.

Answer: Answer: To appease the racist white women and racist white teen girls who watch these shows and who feel threatened by Asian women and mail order brides perpetuating race mixing. If you had watched CSI last year in one particular show, the characters played by Marg Helgenberger and Jorja Fox are furious that a white suspect has an Asian wife and they take great pleasure in proving that this white suspect actually killed someone. White women and white girls are generally less vocal than black girls and black women but they also despise interracial couples, perhaps more so, and that may be another reason why white women are not paired with non-white men in any TV show. Let us not absolve the racist white females and their preferences.

RAJ;

I can name quite a few shows with BM/AM couplings. I can only name 2 with BM/AF couplings. How does 2 shows overrepresent BM/AF couplings I do not know. I can name a million shows with WM/AF couplings. There is an underrepresentation AF/AM shows and it is sad. There are a lot of conspiracy theories floating around on this blog.

Racism is still present. In fact, the book "America Deceived" was pulled from Amazon and Wikipedia for racist content (not too mention the unflattering parts about Foxnews anchorwomen). Anyway, black, asian, white, who cares.
Last link (before Google Books caves to pressure and pulls the title):
America Deceived (book)

Raj - thanks for answering my questions.

DontNuke and others - I am not (nor was I) 'hating' on BM/AF couples (I think a ways back I actually said I thought it was good). I was just asking for opinions from 'the readers' as to why they thought this was being presented and (more importantly) why they thought the more 'likely' couple 'configurations' were NOT being presented. Raj addressed this.

My point was not that there are too many BM/AF couples on TV, but that COMPARED to the ACTUAL number of BM/AF couples AND WM/AF couples, it seems that MAJOR NETWORK TV is OVERREPRESENTING the BM/AF 'rate'.

The fact that AM/AF couples are woefully underrepresented is glaringly obvious.

But Raj raised a good point on that which I had not considered - 'Americans' want to see 'Americans' on TV and (to obviously too great an extent) 'Asians' are not 'seen' as American and this perception is amplified when the couple is AM/AF. Asian male actors have almost always been cast in part for their 'asian-ness'. Just look at "Lost": while the couple played by Daniel Kim and Yunjin Kim (or Yoon-jin) is a good thing and the writers have delved into the complexity of their lives and characters, they are 'cast' as 'non-Americans'. Both came to the US as infants\toddlers. They are more 'American' than Arnold Schwarzenegger or Mel Gibson neither of whom grow up here, yet both Gibson and AH-nold would be 'cast' as 'American' far more readily than either 'Kim'.

This might deserve some thought as to what goes through OUR collective minds when someone says "He/she is an American". What picture do you get?

I suspect that Raj has hit another spot where some of this current 'couple casting' is driven by. It is unlikely that TV writers are completely immune to or ignorant of the occassional rigor\rancor of debate regarding AF\WM couples ('yellow fever', 'fetish' or 'snow blindness', 'banana') - from both the Asian community and white women. So they may have chosen to 're-cast' the situation so as to avoid (potentially) offending either group. This is similar to the consideration that must be taken into account when representing WM/BF couples - the legacy of slavery and forced (sexual) servitude often bubbles to the surface.

Now DontNuke would you be so kind as to list all of those network programs that have Black Male/Asian Male (BM/AM) couples that you say so readily exist. Given that there are very few Male/Male (aka 'homosexual') couples on MAJOR NETWORK TV, the odds that there are many BM/AM versions seems unlikely. Please don't cite some program that comes on SF cable at 2 AM. That isn't MAJOR NETWORK TV. Also, I doubt that you can name 1000 shows with AF/WM couples that are CURRENTLY BEING BROADCAST. (This means do not list shows that are no longer on).

Raj - thanks for answering my questions.

DontNuke and others - I am not (nor was I) 'hating' on BM/AF couples (I think a ways back I actually said I thought it was good). I was just asking for opinions from 'the readers' as to why they thought this was being presented and (more importantly) why they thought the more 'likely' couple 'configurations' were NOT being presented. Raj addressed this.

My point was not that there are too many BM/AF couples on TV, but that COMPARED to the ACTUAL number of BM/AF couples AND WM/AF couples, it seems that MAJOR NETWORK TV is OVERREPRESENTING the BM/AF 'rate'.

The fact that AM/AF couples are woefully underrepresented is glaringly obvious.

But Raj raised a good point on that which I had not considered - 'Americans' want to see 'Americans' on TV and (to obviously too great an extent) 'Asians' are not 'seen' as American and this perception is amplified when the couple is AM/AF. Asian male actors have almost always been cast in part for their 'asian-ness'. Just look at "Lost": while the couple played by Daniel Kim and Yunjin Kim (or Yoon-jin) is a good thing and the writers have delved into the complexity of their lives and characters, they are 'cast' as 'non-Americans'. Both came to the US as infants\toddlers. They are more 'American' than Arnold Schwarzenegger or Mel Gibson neither of whom grow up here, yet both Gibson and AH-nold would be 'cast' as 'American' far more readily than either 'Kim'.

This might deserve some thought as to what goes through OUR collective minds when someone says "He/she is an American". What picture do you get?

I suspect that Raj has hit another spot where some of this current 'couple casting' is driven by. It is unlikely that TV writers are completely immune to or ignorant of the occassional rigor\rancor of debate regarding AF\WM couples ('yellow fever', 'fetish' or 'snow blindness', 'banana') - from both the Asian community and white women. So they may have chosen to 're-cast' the situation so as to avoid (potentially) offending either group. This is similar to the consideration that must be taken into account when representing WM/BF couples - the legacy of slavery and forced (sexual) servitude often bubbles to the surface.

Now DontNuke would you be so kind as to list all of those network programs that have Black Male/Asian Male (BM/AM) couples that you say so readily exist. Given that there are very few Male/Male (aka 'homosexual') couples on MAJOR NETWORK TV, the odds that there are many BM/AM versions seems unlikely. Please don't cite some program that comes on SF cable at 2 AM. That isn't MAJOR NETWORK TV. Also, I doubt that you can name 1000 shows with AF/WM couples that are CURRENTLY BEING BROADCAST. (This means do not list shows that are no longer on).

Questioner:

I dont think they give a damn what Asian Americans think. I would say that many Asians would find the BM/AF couples more offensive. I dont like this attitude but this is true. The media still portrayes BM/AF couples. I think the only people they are afraid of offending is the racist white woman. You go to places such as Littleton or Evergreen, Colorado, you would know what I mean. At a cafe, I heard a bunch of twenty something white women complain about the Asian women stealing "their" men. Go to Alabama, Mississippi or Georgia or for that matter any southern state, it is far worse. There you get really racist white female viewers. The producers do not want to offend these racist female viewers by showing WM/AF couples. The only consideration here is the what the white female thinks.

Questioner:

One more thing. The movie industry, whether Hollywood or not would not mind matching up white looking South Asian woman with a white man. This happened in Bride and Prejudice where Bollywood actress Aishwarya Rai was paierd with Martin Henderson..

http://www.miramax.com/bride/

Well, Ms. Rai is close to being, for a lack of a better term, white...so much so, even Stormfront.org was discussing this...

http://images.askmen.com/top-99/2006/pictures/aishwarya-rai-pics.jpg

There are other Indian actors who may be paired with white men such as the really white looking Preity Zinta..

http://123india.santabanta.com/wallgallery1.asp?catid=1677

or for that matter Kareena Kapoor..

http://dcealumni.com/gallery/films/kareena-kapoor-wallpapers/kareena_kapoor81.jpg

If these women were paired with African American men it would seriously offend the sensibilities of not just racist white women, but all racist whites as well.

what about Asians?

I have a question. Whats wrong with Movies that are produced in Asia? Asians do thrive in the Cinema buisness. Asian Men are lead men in these movies. Bollywood is a giant, second to Hollywood. When I was in India I was amazed at how good these movies were. I bought a great movie called JIZM starring the ultra beautiful Bipasha Basu and John Abraham. Its one of my favorite movies. The only way a movie like JIZM can make it to the US is if Asian suppport it. I see great movies being produced, but no one push these movies to come stateside. Why are Asians in America so fixated with Hollywood? From what ive seen around the world Asians do not need Hollywood to be successful on TV, or in the cinema. Ive seen Asians movies written, produced and directed by Asian filmmakers.These movies are better than 90 percent of the crap Hollywood produces. Over here in Asia they have their own thing going own. In America from what I see its like lets get a Jin in movies like 2 fast and 2 furious 2, or lucy liu trying to be whiter than white, or blacker than black. Dont get me wrong I love Jin. Hollywood does not care who they offend. If Hollywood is going to make a million dollars then they will put a BM/WF, OR whoever if it means a lucrative profit is going to be made. Thats why you see the relationships on ER, Greys Anatomy because the ratings are high. On this one particular chat room I go to the Asian Girls in there cant wait to see whats going to happen next.All the Asian girls in this roon do like Hip Hop dancing and R@B, so if i went to a Led Zepplin Chat room the it would be a different response I guess. Im not an expert on these issues. Me and my Asian wife will be moving to the states soon. Ive been overseas for so long, im not sure what whats going on. I mean I go stateside to visit months at a time, but still. Your opinions would be most appreciated.

foreign films, in general, do not do all that well in the US. There are exceptions of course. Much of that has to do with language or subtitles and other aspects of cultural familiarity. You have to remember that Asian-Americans are still 'American' so that is a big influence on where their 'point of view' comes from as it relates to culture.

Hey Raj, i checked out your links. All of the ladies are gorgeous, but I would never 'mistake' them for being of European descent.

it doesnt matter, if your culture is Indian then you should relate to Bollywood. It Doesnt matter if you moved to the states 7 years ago, or a year ago

you have ruled out the idea of having been born here. why does this not exist as an option? what if someone moved here when they were an infant? a toddler? get rational.

presenting silly arguments simply wastes time.

Here are the problems with Asian films serving as an antidote to Hollywod - (1) only a very small % of Americans go see foreign films (so most American's impression of Asian males and females will be what they see coming out of Hollywood; (2) perpetuates the "foreigner" stereotype; (3) most Asian-Ams who are born/raised here have little interest in watching "Asian fare" (nevermind the problems with different languages/cultures) - they want to see what their friends see (even young Hispanic Americans have left Spanish networks) - which is why the number of Hispanic male characters on network TV has exploded (does anyone expect black Americans to watch shows/films from Africa?) and (4) Asian-Americans, like everyone else, want to see images of people that they can relate to (that means Asian-Ams and not Asians).

Dontnukeit - The vast majority of Asian-Americans follow “white culture” (the viewing patterns of Asian-Ams don’t differ much at all from that of whites) and many Asian female writers/film-makers usually have a WM love interest for their AF characters (“Joy Luck Club”; “Red Doors”). I’m don’t know if anyone here is offended by the 2 prominent portrayals of AF/BM couples (I’m not) – but the problem rather has to do with Hollywood making same-race couples the norm with the exception of Asians. So the problem isn’t the portrayal of AF/BM per se – but rather that such a portrayal (which is a small %) is more common than that of AM/AF (of course, the other shoe is that AFs have predominantly been paired with WMs - and many Asian-Ams, at least the ones who are aware of such things, would rather see AF/BM couplings than AF/WM).

It’s pretty sad when there hasn’t yet been a SINGLE Asian-American couple portrayed on television.

As for getting more Asians in Hollywood (yes – that will help, but even the ones that are there now don’t have the power to effect much change) – the quicker alternative would be for the Asian-American community to be more vocal (just as the black community had been).

Today – you will see many attractive, professional BM characters on network TV (on shows produced by whites for largely a white audience) and the same recently has occurred for Hispanic males (even though Hispanics haven’t really been complaining). The only group this hasn’t occurred for is Asian males (and Asians are the ONLY group where the female portrayals outnumber that for males).

You also see a similar pattern with regardst to news-anchors. There are BM (and HM) anchors in many of the local metro markets and in national broadcasts and yet, you won’t find more than 1-2 AM anchors (while there are numerous AF anchors in both local and national broadcasts).

Raj is simply wrong with the number of AF/WM portrayals as well as for the “white racist” rational. There have been significantly more AF/WM portrayals on TV than AF/BM (and in film, it’s even more heavily skewed to AF/WM).

Plus, there have been numerous portrayals of BM/WF couples on network TV, despite the fact that many WMs, racist or not, would have more of an issue with that than WFs with AF/WM portrayals (eg – the WFs on the dating show that had aired on ABC treated the AF, who only dated WMs, as just another “white girl.” A BF probably wouldn’t have been as comfortable or fit in as easily).

A qustioner, dean

All asian are not white, or follow white patterns. When I was in High School Asians had their own little clicks, my best friend was Vietnmese and we had known each other since
since 2nd grade. His parents raised him to be a Vietnamese in America, not a white Vietnamese in America. A lot of his Vietnamese culture was practiced in his household. There is a difference. I truly see Hollywood has fooled everyone in here. If I see another Asian act, talk, or dress black im going to go crazy as well, SO to a degree you are wrong with the all Asians following white culture, or the vast majority, but I can say enough do. I wouldnt deny that. This comment has nothing to do with Asians, but Black American Culture is the most imitated culture not just in America, but the World. As far as White Culture goes, I dont know what white culture is because all the white dudes try to act black as well. This is not Hollywood, this is what I see everyday. Rinku Sen wrote and article on why are Asians are so obsessed with Hip Hop. Do not let me start with such people as Miss info, Oliver Wang and Jeff Chang.Im Black American, my ancestors have been here for over 400 years and yet we still have our own culture. To say Asians in America do not have their own culture in America and are just white is a little steep dean, but maybe some Asians want to hear that, I dont know. Most of all its about ratings, that what it boils down to. People are looking at this. BM/AF must bring a lot of profit to primetime, they keep prmoting it. money is the key word . Questioner just because someone was born in America doesnt mean they are going to forget who they are, or where their ancestors came from. The arguement was not silly, but valid.

Dean, you hit a lot of my points square on. One that I never see explored or at least I've yet to see any rational response from AFs is the tendency for AFs to look for WMs as romantic interests. I have heard many AMs complain about the issue and I have heard many AFs complain about WMs having an 'asian fetish' and how a good proportion of AFs find this offensive, but the fact still remains that there is a big percentage of AFs that actively seek and make discriminating selections in favor of WM as romantic partners. I would appreciate hearing from AFs as to why this is the case.

DontNuke - you are correct, Black American culture (or some subset of it, as it is NOT monolithically 'hip-hop') is very much imitated on a global basis. The amazing and annoying thing about that is these 'others' (the imitators) WANT the 'look' but they don't want the people who are the source. To whit, many AsianAm 'cultures' are very anti-Black. In fact, the 'intensity' of their bigotry often exceeds that of whites.

I went to a High School that had a lot of Asians. I use to walk around and watch all the whites Kids call these Vietnamese kids "Gooks", and everyday after school pick fights with. My friend Kim Nguyn was someone I had known since 2nd grade, but as time went on we lost touch with each other. In 10th grade we started to talk again, but Nguyn had a problem a couple of those good ole boys was bashing his face in every chance they got. Me and my friend was walking home and I Remember a white guy named David, who a lot of black people in the school hated, called my friend out and said he was going to kick his ass, trying to impress his other white friends. I could not understand why out of all these different ethnic groups in my school, Asians were the most targeted by whites. Well if they Came at the Blacks we wouldve kick their assess. To make a long story short I told David that if he fought anyone that day it would be me and any day after if he came at my friend again. This is why my Asian friend does Hip Hop. It was a median to talk about his culture, racism he faced and obstacles he overcame. Ive had a lot of Asians that tell me they had a lot in common with blacks. Ive met plenty of Asians in America that adored Black Americans. When they see my wife is Asians it all comes out. But at the same time I will say there are a lot of Asians that do not want to have anything to do with Blacks and I will admit that. Questioner, I see you are in denial to certain things, but its cool. How can you imtate and emulate someone you hate, Im not getting it. Some Asian Americans are bigoted toward, blacks, but some have shown us a lot of love. Raj are you voting for that Senator from Virginia?, What was it he said about Asians, or Desis. I dont care how much you try to justify yourself, He is the one that looks at you the same way he looks at me. An Asian friend told me that qoute. So A questioner we deal with 2 different types of Asians. Lets just say that

DontNuke, What exactly am I in denial of? Who am I emulating and imitating? Wno is it that I hate?

What are you talking about?

DontNuke, What exactly am I in denial of? Who am I emulating and imitating? Wno is it that I hate?

What are you talking about?

Dont –

I never said that Asians (and esp. ALL Asians) are white, but that the vast majority in the US follow the same viewing patterns (with regard to TV/film) as white America (these are from studies done by movie studios and the TV networks) – just as the viewing patterns of black Americans is markedly different (I’m not talking about whether Asian-Ams keep any of their ethnic traditions or to what extent).

Sure - there are pockets of Asian-Ams who mainly view videos of TV shows/films from their native lands (usually more recent immigrants) or largely follow “black urban culture” – but the majority have the same viewing patterns as mainstream white America (even in Asia – the most popular shows are “Friends”; “Sex in the City”; “Desperate Housewives”; etc.).

And while “black urban culture” has become mainstream – saying that everyone is trying to “act black” is going a bit overboard. Rock and country music are still very popular among non-black Americans (and even among some blacks as well).

Most whites (as well as Asian-Ams) shop at The Gap, JCrew, American Eagle, Abercrombie, Banana Republic (they should rename BR “Asian-Am Republic” for the no. of Asian-Ams who shop there), Express, Eddie Bauer, Land’s End, Timberland, Ann Klein, Ann Taylor LLBeane, Ralph Lauren, Lacoste, Nautica, Calvin Klein, Kenneth Cole, etc. (not to mention all of the European design houses).

Plus, if white/Asian Americans were really into “black urban culture” – their viewing habits would be similar to that of the majority of black Americans (but it isn’t) and the marriage rates of Asian-Ams to blacks would be higher than what it is (about 1.3%).

In Asia – there is still a heavy bias against darker skinned people (even in places like the Philippines where there are ethnicities of varying skin-tones) . Otoh, hapas who are half-white are celebrated in places like Singapore and Thailand (where hapas have become mainstays in film and modeling).

Asian-Ams really haven’t developed an Asian-Am culture. Most Asian-Ams just try to preserve some of their ethnic culture or don’t care to and assimilate in with mainstream society (plus the differences in Asian cultures and traditional ethnic animosities don’t help either). There are a small group of Asian-Am musicians, artists and film-makers who have produced work with Asian-Am issues/context – but not enough to really say that there is an Asian-Am culture.

Quest –

These are generally the primary reasons for this phenomena – (1) the media (from TV, film, commercials, advertisements) primarily show AFs partnered with WMs; (2) the media primarily shows AMs in a negative stereotypical fashion (short, meek, geeky and effeminate a la “Long Duk Dong” and “William Hung” or abusive and chauvinistic); (3) many Asian-Ams have grown up in suburban (and largely white) communities and like all kids – want to fit in and be like their peers (have crushes on teen idols such as Orlando Bloom – there are no AM teen idols in the US); (4) some AFs (as well as some AMs – though not as much) due to the media images – have an issue with self-esteem and identity and dating a white person is seen as the ultimate form of “acceptance” and “belonging”; (5) some Asian parents (particularly mothers) urge their daughters to marry white and (6) some Asian-Ams think that by marrying a white person – that they will have beautiful children (this, btw, is a false belief).

DEAN:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Dec-16-Sun-2001/business/17638493.html

http://missinfo.blip.tv/file/73253/

halfkorean.comhttp://halfkorean.com/hk_star/kay_crystal.shtml

http://www.halfkorean.com/halfstar.html

look at this website. On the right is a bunch of names of mixed Korean celebrities. Even I was amazed at how many of them were half/African American. This is not my point for posting this, I think we all would learn something from this site.

http://www.halfkorean.com/halfstar.html

Dean,

thanks for the post. One thing I have been stupified by is the big 'addiction' to Abercrombie and
Fitch by Asians and this is after A&F got sued for discriminating against minorities, MANY of whom were Asian Amercian women. It boggles my mind! Are they simply unaware of these issues? It was a pretty big deal, especially on the West Coast.

You guys do know that Korean society looks down upon mixed children (and particularly half-black children)?

Which is why Hines Ward highlighted the problem during his visit to Korea.

I'm not saying there isn't a % of Asian women (who are seeking foreigners) who go out with BMs due to the hip hop (or economic reasons) - but the majority of Asian women who go for foreigners - go for WMs.

Look at the marriage statistics in the US - the % of Asian-Am women married to BMs (whether they are 1st gen or 2nd gen) is about 1%. Likewise for Asian-Am males. (If a large % of Asian-Ams were truly immersed in "black urban culture" - the marriage statistics should, at least, show a % of Asian-Am marriages close to that of the % of blacks in the pop. - 12-13%.)

Quest - Unfortunately, a lot of Asian-Ams don't know or don't care and shop at Abercrombie.

Even my cousin and her friends (who were visiting from Asia) wanted to shop at Abercrombie, until I told them about the racist t-shirts (they ended up shopping at American Eagle).

http://www.club-b045.com/sub1.htm

This was one of my favorite of many clubs. Im aware of how Koreans look down on mix couples and a little more with those mixed with black. I will admit, Koreans and Blacks are not the best of friends, but niether are Korean and Japanese. My wifes parents did not approve of us dating, but my wifes parents did not of approve her Japanese boyfriend who was a lawyer either. I had all the strikes against me. Im black, in the Military and from America, which they despised. But my wife chose me over them. Like a lot of rebellious Asian Youths that are so influenced by western culture, Black culture leading the way. They are making there own decision. Some Japanese parents are ok with it, but if they are older traditional Japanese like my wifes parents then you are going to have a headache. I dont care if you are black, or white. My wifes parents are in there mid 70s. When the US bomb Japan my wifes father was in his early teens. When Tokyo was bomb I recall him saying he had to jump in one of tokyo harbors to avoid being killed. He lost brothers and Sisters from the raids. My wife mother moved to tokyo from the Nagasaki area. She lost family members from the Nuclear bomb. So I cant blame her parents for hating the US Miltary, but they love our son. He is the world to them. I think Asia would be a real experience for the 2 of you. I dont know whats in the water in Korea, but they keep having a lot of black/korean babies despite the hardships. I know a lot of those couples move to hawaii like Amere Rogers who pic was in that session. I hear hawaii is a haven for BM/KOREAN realtionships

What do Korean and Japanese relationships have to do with this?

Korea and Japan really aren't that different. Both have a small segment of the female pop. who seek out foreigners (for a variety of reasons)- however, the segment seeking BM over WM expats is smaller.

Are all the Japanese/black American couples deciding to stay in Japan? Otherwise, why would their % of Japanese-Am IR marriages be so low (in comparison to that with whites)?

I know a couple of BMs who live in Japan and they constantly remark about how they are treated less well than their WM expat counterparts and about how the images of BMs on Japanese TV tends to be stereotypical and offensive.

I'm sure your Japanese in-laws love your son - but that's often the case when grandchildren are born.

Japan and the rest of Asia have a long way to go with regards to how they view blacks (aside from the narrow viewpoint of hip-hop culture) - and btw, I have traveled extensively in Asia.

Dean,

thank you for your post. I am very aware of the (generally) negative attitude of most of Asia towards blacks and the Korean attitude towards mixed race people and dark-skinned people. I have spent time in various parts of Asia as well. We can all point to various singular circumstances that defy the statistics, but you hit the nail on the head - it would seem rational that IF Asian who were interested in marrying non-Asians (in the US) had no biases against Blacks, that the stats would show a 'mix' of BM/AF and AM/BF marriages close to the population demographics of Blacks in the country - 12 - 13%. But the statistics show a very one-sided slant - 99% of asian women who are married to non-asians are married to white men. The apparant disconnect between these statistics and what prime time TV is 'showing' was what fueled my inquiry on this thread at the start.

One thing that does bug me is the consistant 'myopic link' of Black = Hip-hop. It is as if Black Amercians had no 'culture' or discernible identity before hip-hop. There are plenty of Black people that do not wear their pants around their butts; wear outrageous jewelry; put rims on their cars or drink 40s. That is probably what fuels the annoyance of those Blacks who find the typical TV and media representations in Asia offensive. It is unlikely that a Black person working in Japan, Seoul or Beijing for some company is a 'full time b-boy'. This is the same sort of stereotyping that Asian males find offensive in the US media - geeks, domineering assholes and kung fu masters. Even Daniel Kim's characteron Lost had some of that 'I'm the boss, woman!!' stuff laced into his character.

Dont - you seem to think I have some sort of 'problem' with BM/AF couples on TV. This is not the case at all. I just am confused as to why there is this recent 'trend' of showing a 'couple configuration' (AF/BM) in proportions much larger than it actual occurance which tends to 'downplay' the extent to which the 'real deal' (AF/WM) is happening? Funny thing, someone cited the Asian girl on that 'Try to find a man' reality show (can't recall its real name) who woudl only date white guys. The fact that she is a 'real' asian woman as opposed to a character played by an actress on TV sort of reinforces my point - Art is not imitating reality. You have only to look on CL's "W4M" page and 'search; under Asian and see how many asian women are looking for exclusively white men. Not Black, not Latino and often not even Asian - ONLY 'caucasians'. That has GOT to sting to many an Asian man.

Things happen for a reason. I was trying to figure out that reason.

Quest

Im not saying there isnt a lot of Asian women looking for WM. Im just saying there are some that like brothers, I have met some that only date black exclusively. Thats why I can this post to be truthful. Ive lived in 2 Asian countries (not just visited) In Asian, why do a lot of these asian girls take melanin pills to make their skin dark like black people? why do the frizz their hair like afros, or wear braids. Why is the large Asian population walking around with Tupac and Bob MArley shirts and every other famous black popular artist I can think of beside Elvis Presley. If Fillipinos hate dark Skin so much then that like saying they hate themselves. Ive been to Manila and Subic Bay twice. Black have no-culture. Rock N Roll, Jazz, Blues, R@b, and HIp Hop all came from The African American Community. So guys kind of re-think.

Dont,

you seem to have trouble getting what I'm saying. In no way am I suggesting that Black people have no culture. What I am saying is that this culture is older, broader and deeper than hip-hop.

What I disagree with is the constant 'presentation' of hip-hop as the only 'real' representation of African American culture. I disagree with African Americans that buy into that propaganda. It is untrue, overly restrictive and, in many ways, detrimental to the progress of African Americans and Black people everywhere because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity. It turns a culture into a cartoon - just like 'Shaolin Masters', while honorable unto itself, mocks Chinese culture when it becomes the most common framework in which Asian men are seen. You've lived in Asia, you know how untrue that is. These types of narrrow representations limit the range of humanity that Blacks, Asians and others are seen in.

As for those Asian girls that have a 'black fetish' - they certainly exist, but they are in the distinct minority. There is almost always an exception to any rule. Also, just because someone wants to bite on the culture doesn't mean that they want the creators of that culture to move in next door (think of Elvis Pressley and early Rock 'n Roll). To the extent that you are accepted, that is no surprise either. A single individual (as in 'lone', not 'unmarried') is rarely a threat. If you are fluent in Japanese, that is a big help. But let 20 other Balck guys move into the neighborhood and start dating...a different reaction will probably occur.

I speak broken Japanese, but a enough to get around. Its a pain in the but teaching my son english, because he goes to a Japanese daycare. OK, let me explain this Japan to me is like America, but just one race. You have the BM/AF fetish, but at the same time there is a lot marriges between BM/JN over here. You have the WM/JN fetish with marriages the same. Then you have the JN/american fetish which mean they will talk to anyone from America reguardless of color. Japanese females mostly prefer Japanese males over both. It just boils done to what Western Culture the females like the most.Japanese are mostly into Black American Culture at the moment. Quest, you are right it goes past the scope of Hip Hop. When I was talking about my parents resenting me because im black, well they hate white as well and just as much. Japanese parents from the Babyboom period are kinda cool, but if you go past that age then they can be snobbish, at least that is my experience. Maybe in America its a distinct Minority for BM/AF realtionships, but not overseas. Well Japan if you took the BM/JN and WM/JN. White guys are not really winning that battle. I would give BM the edge, or its a close tie. If you add all the African over here that pretty much run all the clubs in Roppongi that would put us over the top by far. Well their are a lot of African over here. I see Europeans to , but from what ive seen, more Africans. Then again this area is so Huge who knows. I mean did you look at that half Korean.com websites. It was just as many Black Korean as white. I dont care what stats say, I just go by what I see. Like I said, Ive seen Japanese girls that actually tried to tan their skin Black. A lot of them

You can’t just go on personal observations, since what you see is often influenced by personal biases and particular situations (if you went to San Francisco and saw a lot of gay men – are you then going to say that 30-35% of the men in America must be gay simply based on your observations?)

You can go to any particular nightclub in Korea, Japan, Thailand, etc. and depending on which group they cater to (white or black Americans) – each group will think that Asian women fawn over them. Many WM expats are under the misguided notion that all AFs are after them b/c they go to the bars/clubs where AFs (who seek out WMs) tend to congegrate.

The two sub-cultures of Japanese girls (the “Ganguro” and the more tame “Kogal”) are known for rebelling against Japanese norms for feminine beauty (pale skin, raven black hair) and opt for a more “American” look – tanned skin, bleached hair, color contacts) - while a minority of the Ganguro girls may be emulating American BF celebs, the majority of the Ganguro girls (who bleach their hair blonde and wear blue/green contact lenses) and the Kogal girls are thought to emulate the tanned look of white Californian girls.

I’m sure there are marriages btwn American BMs and JFs – but unless all of them have decided to stay in Japan (which is highly doubtful) – they should be showing up in the US Census statistics.

And just b/c some Japanese are fans of the hip-hop culture – don’t think that the majority of Japanese people have a negative view towards all foreigners, and in particular, to those with darker skin (just as the popularity of the hip-hop culture in the US doesn’t mean that there isn’t problems with regard to racism and discrimination against blacks here).

The images of BM on Japanese TV and of blacks in general in the press are still highly negative (reminscent of racist images of BMs in the US during the 40s and 50s).

Im not basing everything off one venue. Ive been all over Asia. Ive been all over Japan. Lived in Japan for 4 years and TAD in Korea for a year. They always throw Census at me. Well I never did a cansus and niether have any of my friends that have Asian wives that lived in the states either. So who does that pertain to. I never said there wasnt any discrimination in Japan, but based on me being black, I never expereinced it. I expereirenced discrimnation as being an American. Ive went to venues with my white friends and they said foriegnors not allowed. A lot of blacks as well as whites integrate themselves in the community and that kills alot of the stereotypes. The only blacks I see on NHK, or Japanese TV is Bob Sapp and that African dude Bobby. They are like Superstars here. I look at Japanese TV as well. The Japanese society is not perfect either. The point ive been trying to make of all this is that this relationship on a international view, not just an American view is possible. I can name some real life stories that descibe this post. So it is fact and make sense

I'm a African American and i love women from India. i think they are fine as hell. Screw all that racial crap!
Cause we are all human beings and race should not matter. Is there any girls from India here who would like to marry me? Namaste.... baby!

India, more so than any other society in the world, frowns upon inter-religious, inter-caste, and interracial relationships. This is an obvious attempt at stirring-up controversy and to drive up ratings. I for one could care less about the south asian female/black male dynamic, because in reality it's a complete anomaly, the funnier discrepency comes with the lack of indian/pakistani and east asian male doctors on the program. But who cares, we are out there actually becoming doctors rather than striving to play one on TV.

a questioner:

i like what you have to say. but you're kinda mean...but in any case, you are obviously beasting out everyone on this post thread.

anonymous:

umm...nice try.
_______________ _ _ _

i agree staunchly with much of what a questioner states in many of her (?) posts above. a south asian american woman myself, i agree that relationships with black men can be extremely complicated in that there is a great degree of anti-black sentiment within the south asian diaspora; and it is probably true that this racism does not go without mutual exchange of hatred.

for me, to watch "neela" marry "michael" is almost ludicrous; i know a few BM/(S)AF couples, but that it was barely influenced by neela's family's politics on that episode of ER was completely unbelievable to me. her parents, if you remember the episode when they came to visit her (played by real life hub&wife anupam and kirron kher), showed us that they were very conservative desis. why was it so easy for neela to get hitched without recourse?

i also agree with bean when he talks about the deliberate casting of AF and BM together to fulfill diversity quotas. i'm sure it is all in the economics of television programming, but i'll avoid a marxist critique here.

but to change subjects, a questioner, you mentioned this:

"It is untrue, overly restrictive and, in many ways, detrimental to the progress of African Americans and Black people everywhere because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity."

don't get me started on the "whiteness" of progress, etc. if you are a true believer in the gospel of the one and only stuart hall, why would you believe "african americans" buy into this; that too, isn't buying a conscious choice, a preemptive decision? you use the terms buy and propaganda so loosely, i am beginning to suspect if you honestly believe that "african americans" don't realize their own plight. how can anyone prosyletize on the subject of authenticity and "african americanism" (if such a thing really exists) when even "african americans" have no clear handle on the way they wish to be represented, even if it is through the hip hop "culture"?

BTW. i *think* that gangster rap, and its spawn of "gangster" hip hop, died out with 2pac and biggie. it also was particularly hastened by p.diddy's (formerly known as puffy) exit from the gangster world. the hip hop music community is like the UN; everyone has alliances and when the big fish goes anti-gangster, so do a lot of others. okay, fine, fat joe, 50 cent and snoop still try, but we all know where coolio (and lil' kim, too) is right now -- and you know these luxurified current rapsters don't want to experience the high life by way of high-security prisons. so, please don't tell me that hip hop is all gangster when it is so obviously not.

and also, along the same line, not to be preachy a questioner, but do unto others as you would have them do unto you. stop homogenizing the "black" community or otherwise don't expect understanding by them or anyone else on the Asian-American plight to gain representation. having grown up in a "black", lower middle-class neighborhood my whole life, i doubt my so-called "progressive" friends would appreciate your criticism because it is a bit off mark.

nonetheless, i am intrigued by the rest of the comments made by you a questioner, so don't have a hissy fit. everyone else, you should strive to be as thorough and well-versed as AQ when she is on the fly, because she's pretty much got this. and she has great taste in men (i.e. -- daniel kim :P), so more "brownie" points there for her...not that i have any authority there whatsoever to apportion points, lol.

peace to the middle east (and jammu & kashmir).

best,

mudphud girl

Wow..so much controversy over such an irrational emotion. Love.

Anyway, I chose to marry a Trinidadian guy and being from a traditional Indian family that stirred up quite a few emotions in everyone.

Although, I must admit that I sort love the look on my aunts/uncles faces when they hear about him. The look of sheer terror! HAHA...

The silly part is, he's West-Indian, which means he looks just like some people in my family. But yea, the whole thing about caste, religion and being 'inferior' to my dumbass relatives always is an issue. I personally couldn't care less what they or anyone else thinks of my relationship. My parents came around and even if they hadn't, it still wouldn't have stopped me. When you find love, you hang on for dear life! So to hell with race, caste, religion and the rest of that crap!

If I wasn't so damn influenced by my mom's spirituality, I'd swear I'd be an atheist. I loathe the walls that are put up between people based on crap that happend centuries ago. Sprituality and having your own beliefs is fine, but when you start thinking one group is better and/or inferior to another based on those beliefs, that really blows!

I guess I'm a hippy at heart, and hopefully one day people will just learn to live and let live.

Oh...and all these retarded-ass shows (ER, CSI, Desperate Housewives, Greys, blah blah blah) along with the garbage reality shows really stink!

Im a black man and ive been to India. Goa India to be exact. I dont think to many people there was looking down on anyone. That was the poorest country ive ever seen, besides Africa. When I was in Singapore I went to Sultan Muhammad st. Met an Indian girl. We dated internationaly for a while, but the distance ended that. Well I ended it. America is the different. I guess when people who were not born in America lands here. The question is which way are we going to go. Blacks, yes we are rebellious against injustice, but I mean it in a good way. We will challenge the system reguardless if it pisses off mainstream America. So naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people, but at the same time they cant get of enough of our culture and and yes mudphudgirl, there is Black American Culture, Its not American. Well I guess I have more bad news for you. Another show with and BM/AM lead.
correct me if im wrong but the show is daybreak, starring taye diggs on ABC.
My friend that works for the Dept of State in Singapore married an Indian Girl. But thats Overseas so I guess it doesnt count. Check this out.

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0505/225064.html

Hi WELL, WELL,

Oh! I never said there was no African American mainstream culture. I realize, too, that the reason it perpetuates is most definitely because White middle America consumes black culture...and admittedly so do I *brown is beautiful, too!* :P Not to say that blacks do not consume these cultural things, too. What I meant was that black culture has aspects of it that are not consciously created by blacks, and also not consciously consumed by blacks. I was upset that it could be assumed that blacks want to subscribe to "backward" identities like "gangster" and consciously carry on the "bad image" and sterotypes that go along with it. I've never met a black person who (still, lol) listens to Coolio or 50 Cent tell me that they always wanted to become a gangster when they grew up. Or that Gangster rap in some way represented them, other than through the resistance movements that you speak of.
(Unless of course if they were actually in gangs, and I met many who were, but they were not in the majority...)

I was just trying to be academic and reference preeminent culture studies theorist Stuart Hall in my last post. I guess I was not clear enough...

Umm...I don't get what you meant by "naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people..." That is a big assumption there! My parents, though they are cultural relativists, call all their so-called "african" colleagues some of the most genial and intelligent people they have met. Where would there be space to be taught to hate blacks in India, I just don't see it...

Best,
MudPhud Girl

Mud Pud Girl:

Well I agree with you on that aspect. Some of the brightest Scientist, Doctors, and politician in America are Black Americans and has always been. The problem is no one talks about DR Ben Carson, or Garrette A. Morgan. They always show that gangster garbbage on MTV because it sells and a large quantity of the youth falls for that crap. 50 cents to me is the stephen fetchet of the 2k. a sell out in the worse form. While working with the U. S Military Ive traveled extensively throughout Asia. Ive visited 3 countries in Asia with large Indian populations. The Homeland(India), Singapore and Malaysia. Ive seen divisions among some Asian interest of Love, culture and Politics as far as those that had interest in the west. I went to Goa, too many Hippie Europeans there. I wasnt so popular in the Motherland with the Women. When I went to Singapore the Indians there went Black man Crazy. The funny thing about it,We met a crowd of Indian girls in the clark quey district they took us a Club were all the Black people hang. Im Thinking they were talking about people of African disporia, but they meant Indians. It was a Hip Hop club with a crunk DJ and half of the people in there was darker than me. there was a lot of American Military from the Sembawang Air Force, Navy base there. It was a club in Singapore on the world famous Mohammad Sultan Rd. I spent a week with this Indian Girl. We watched Bollywood movies and I was introduced to Indian culture for the first time. I will admit Indian women are the most beautiful women in the world. one of my favorite Movies is a Indian Movie starring Bipasha Basu named JIZM. The point im making is this love affair can happen on an international level. Ive seen Black men dating Indian Girls Overseas. Once people come to America they want to be American as possible and kiss who ever butt is in power to get that honorary card. Im Black, but I do not listen to Hip Hop. A lot of my Black friends do not listen to American Hip Hop. If you do not talk to a lot of Black Americans then you would know this. We are Individuals first then a race second. I listen to old R@B music from the 50s to the early 80s when people actually could sing. This relationship between neela and the Captain is some what realisitc because its more of an International relationship than domestic. She is from the UK, He is in the Military. These types of relationships are happening among Asians and Blacks. Kinda like Tiger Woods. American Asians and Blacks well maybe thats a different story. despite some of the hatred that people are taught towards one another is the same. At this moment I here people talking about how much the hate Arabs since 9/11. Ive read a story how a sikh was discrminated against because ignorant people thought he was he a threat. People see certains Asians of muslim faith and discriminate against them just as hard as blacks. Some of them were indonesian and Indian(sikhs). So see the power of media. See how it makes people think. This was in reference to that assumption comment made above. Everyone has assumtions about everyone, not just blacks. Japanese and Koreans are taught to hate each other from what I was told and seen. when I went those countries. Because of all the slaughtering and rapes committed by the Japanese Military when they invaded Korea and China before WWII. This is a topic thats talked about till this day over there. Ive seen the hate between these two countries first hand. Deep, I guess the second point im making is the hate bigger than black people in different countries. Everyone here is on an American way of thinking and thinks the rest of the world thinks as they do. Whites, Blacks and Asians alike. Im not saying im an expert on some of this stuff, but I can honostly say that i gathered my info from talking to the source and yet a lot is from assumptions. So that will give you an idea as well

MPG,

AQ here. No hissy fit on the horizon. I was flattered to be so elegantly quoted, commended and challenged. And linked to Stuart Hall??!! Well, I got a promotion didn't I? Good to see that some readers can take a 'problem' posed and shift their view to a larger frame of reference than their own personal experiences. Any of us can cite individuals or incidents that counter statistical norms, be they media depictions or actual couples, but the statistical norms are just that for a reason.

I think you misunderstood my "...because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity." statement.

First, I am not saying that all (or even most) Black Americans 'buy into' this belief - I don't think that most Black Americans want to be or consider themselves 'gangstas' nor do they believe that the portrayal of same in videos and the like are the norm for Black American life. What I am saying is that all too often, this narrow presentation of 'Black America' is the one that is shown and posited as 'normal' for Black [people] - maybe more targetedly, Black American males under the age of 28. Also, 'gangsterism' is not synonymous with 'gangsta rap', but even P.Diddy (honestly, how gangster can you be with the name 'Diddy"???) fell into the trap of his wanna-be press clippings and videos with the stupid 'gun play in the club' routine a couple years ago. Maybe the term shouldn't be 'gangster' but definitely there are 'social norm' problems when concepts like 'pimpin' and 'Tip Drill' become synonymous with s group of people and a 'culture'.

Cohorts of Busta Rhymes being shot, Fabolous being shot, Benie Sigel in Philly...there is too long of a list of 'bad boys' (and some girls) who all 'sing the same' and 'look the same' such that 'middle America' won't make the effort to sort out the good from the bad - sort of like Memoirs of a Geisha with an all Chinese cast (except the guy). [You know there all "Asian" something or others, so...]

The short form, broad spectrum read will be 'Rap people have bad things happen around them. They are trouble.' Along with that will be the never ending series of commercials, etc, with 'rap' soundtracks and 'identifiably' Black voices, photo shoots with 'angry looking Black men in oversized clothes'...

and presto! change-o! Media Image\Message Framing!
Rap People=Trouble;
Rap People=Black People;
Black People=Trouble.

Not a tough sell in the US - they have been at it a while. Rap is just the latest 'verification' of the validity of the 'theory'.

A variant of this same message - "the source of trouble" - was promulgated in the Katrina coverage as well. Who's face graced the media as 'the suffering poor'? Black people again!
Yet whose community is the slowest to receive aid commensurate with their damages? I'll let you guess.

The resultant 'classifications' for Black Americans CAN'T be good. They are either 'soon to be shot' or 'soon to be impoverished' or 'soon to suffer'. It makes it hard for a 'regular' (or "progressive") Black person to get anything done or be taken seriously. Even if the reaction isn't outright 'eww! get away!', it can become 'there, there. I know you can't handle anything yourself' paternalism. Each is a burden in its own way.

That was my point.

As for there being 'some' subset of African Americans who 'buy into' the concept of hip-hop being the 'authentic representation of Black America' - I say this because I know some of those people. I talk to them regularly and they do 'buy into' that concept. Some get subscriptiosn and some buy an issue at a time, but they purchase regularly at the 'hip-hop is the voice of resistance' window. Hip-hop CAN be a voice of resistance, but like much in America, hip-hop is a product; a fashion and it is sold. Hell, 'resistance' is 'sold' as a fashion here - remember the "Rebel without a Cause", James Dean? Marketed 'rebelllion' is what he was.

I agree with you..most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America. My susggestion, and I suggest it to [almost] all 'minorities' here in the USA, IF your plan is to be a citizen, then define yourself as 'American' and take ownership of your country. Stop renting your nation and buy in. This doesn't mean 'love it or leave it' but recognize who and what you are and run with it. WE can reshape this thing to be more representative of us too. It galls me every time I meet someone whom I've spoken to over the phone or on-line and they say "Oh. I thought you were American. You are so articulate!"
I AM F***$%# American you idiot! And a college graduate to boot. Of course I'm articulate!!

AS for Coolio, last I saw his no-talent-having, non-rhyme-saying, stupid hair wearing skinny behind he was playing the requisite 'Black American Drug Dealer' doing poorly choreographed martial arts moves in a Chinese film where the Chinese cop was the most round-eyed Chinese guy you were going to find ANYWHERE named 'Steve' or some such nonsense. Needless to say, Coolio met his demise at the hands of 'Steve' on a rooftop somewhere over a fantasy 'Shanghai'. This was on a flight to Taipei. Of course, Coolio was the only Black person in the movie. I thought to myself, "Damn, I feel sorry for Black people! To be represented by Coolio. Damn."

Oh, it occurs to me that as for your parents being much more 'respectful' of their African friends than they show to African Americans, this is no surprise. Many people (including Africans and African Americans) make a clear and sharp distinction between the two. So much so that there is a noticeable rift between the two communities in the US. Your progressive friends may deny their 'involvement' and this may be true for them, but if they are sentient beings, I doubt they could completely deny its existence. San Francisco might be a little different because the Black population is so low that there is often a 'circle the wagons' attitude which tends to neutralize that trend.

Oh Oh! I am glad someone mentioned this new Taye Diggs show (another handsome gent) and his [appears to be] Asian GF. Now, soembody try to tell me there is no 'plot' here!!! I could take a roll of pennies and throw them off the Empire State building at lunchtime and not hit as many BM and AFs as these programs seem to have 'hit' purely by 'accident'.

MPG, it is so nice to make your acquaintence!

Well You see a little bit more BM/AFs on the west coast. I see a few relationships in the Washington state area. Well remember in the bay area. Vallejo, Richmomd , Oakland and Marin are predominatly black cities in San Francisco area. Fillmnore is the Black section of San Francisco if im correct.
Who controls the media? Who does the media benefit? Only a shallow fool would put complete faith in media and believe everything said. Since 911 a lot of Muslim Asian are being discriminated against. I read a paper that an Pakistani, or Indian sikh boarded a plane soon after 9/11. A caucasion lady made a ruckus about them being terrorist and wouldnt fly because she thought they were terrorist. Its just perception. When Hip HOp first came out it was political with strong messages. Today commercialism has destroyed the art form like it did Rock N Roll. When you talk to some people its not always the case

taye diggs can be my boyfriend anytime

AQ,

Most indubitably! It is inspiring to make your acquaintance as well.

Thank you for the clarification on what you meant about the synonymity btw gangsterism and hip-hop culture. I agree with you very much on the marketed rebellion schtick. What is most troubling, however, is that the individuals who control the images being produced are primarily white middle-aged males. While it is true that many black youth (and I say that because though a few grandpas/mas bump the Cee-lo or Freeway in their Oldsmobile Cutlass, most older blacks listen to funk, jazz, r&b and other non-gangster-ish music and identify with those movements of rebellion) understand that there is a great difference between their identity and the way facets of their identity are being represented in mass media, there are still a great many who subscribe to the gangster identity.

Blacks who feel that the messages coded in gangster rap particularly resonate with their politics are not in fact subscribing to some "African American" identity or black empowerment movement formed by the black community, but rather one that is a tool used subversively in maintaining white patriarchal hegemony.

Marked differences can be seen even in the spaces in which albums released by gangster rap artists are advertised; generally you don't see posters of Beanie Sigel in white suburbia, you see him plastered on SEPTA bus stands in North or West Philly (or some such region) where the oppressed, impoverished youth live. Selling the image of a man from the streets who pulled himself up to the top of his game by his bootstraps, and yet who still maintains his "roots" by being thug is such an underhanded way of telling black youth that they can succeed and move out of the projects but only if they stay a criminalistic gangster, not a law-abiding citizen. Those blacks who are wealthy and listen to gangster rap, tend to find out from connections to urban areas, and as some twisted tribute and contribution back (which doesn't go back anywhere but instead to the white man's hand/pocket) to the ghetto, the old neighborhood. I feel that rebellion in the form of rap is non-existent unless it is by Dead Prez, etc, and even then I question whether rebellion can be sold, and still remain a rebellion.

Though I believed once that rappers like Common, Kanye West, Talib Kweli, Missy Elliott, and so on, were changing the face of hip-hop, particularly rap, I wonder now if their music too is coded with "stay in your place" rhetoric from white producers. It doesn't matter, because I will still listen to it, and will probably still unconsciously perpetuate white hegemony. (I think I just threadjacked, but hell, hip-hop was my life growing up.)

Finally, yes, you are right that my parents hold their actual African colleagues in higher esteem than their black colleagues. However, being the FOBs my parents are, despite having been in the US for 26 years, they used to call all blacks, Africans, Caribbean Islanders, etc., as "Africans." Only recently have they been calling blacks, blacks. But yes, it is true that Indo-Americans and blacks have mutual exchanges of hatred. This is also the result of an historic pitting of blacks against Asian Indians to serve the white patriarchy. Racial formation is a conservative, white interest, and the racially motivated anger between blacks and Asian Indians can be traced back to the consideration by the US government in the early 1900s of Asian Indians as "caucasian," thereby granting them privileges such as land ownership and an ability to jump scales and become mobilized to move up between classes. There are also recent incidences of violence in urban areas which tend to create neighborhood wars between lower-middle class and poor black and Asian Indian communities, particularly regarding residential and business property. Urban blacks are generally regarded in the Asian Indian community as "frequenters to liquor stores" and it is also no secret that franchises of liquor stores are owned by the very Asian Indians who spread this stereotype of blacks. When a liquor store owner gets shot or robbed, the black community gets blamed first because their neighborhoods are perceived as crime ridden and the cause of problems. Blacks on the other hand may also have negative stereotypes of Asian Indians, which I don't really know enough about to speak on. However, these contentions may be a result of two communities sharing deed restricted space which is controlled by white power. Kinda similar to the race riots in LA after Rodney King's murder. So yes, I will concede that the relations between Asian Indians and blacks is nuanced by a history of oppression, violence, and hatred.

As for Taye Diggs...I lurrrrvee his dimples. 'Nuff said.

Best,

MudPhud Girl

Someone asked me if I would vote for Allen. I was not going to vote for him even before the Macaca incident. I could not reply earlier because I was in California and Hawaii away from my east coast home. White men or women with the opposite sex of any other race is a no-no for many people. That is why the Republicans ran a commercial implying that the Democratic Senate Candidate in Tennessee who is African American loves white women. Had they run a commercial showing an Asian woman telling Harold Ford, "call me", no one would have bothered except perhaps Asian Americans...and that is the main reason why there are more Asian American women shown to be dating white men in various shows although in the real America there are more Caucasian men dating Asian American women. I would bet that if the GOP ran a commercial showing an Asian woman telling a white Democratic candidate to call him, the latter would loose as well, particularly in the South. In the finaly analysis, the GOP commercial in Tennessee was also seen in Ohio and PA where black GOP candidates are running for governorships..real racists who oppose IR and who vote GOP would likely stay home, especially in the Ohio valley..resulting in the Dems picking up enough House seats in those two states to put them on the road to majority.

MudPhud Girl:

I do not know which part of India your folks are from. But, in the South, there are many Indian women who can pass for black...and among the Singaporeans of South Indian origin, this is especially true.

Hey MPG! Nice to see you back. I suppose we ought not to use the board's space for personal "hellos".

You are on point in paragraph 1 my dear! The 'gangsta' image has its inherent problems, but the bigger issue I see is that there has become an almost singular 'presentation format' of African Americans and that is the 'hip hop'\in the hood image. Where something 'different' is shown, it is often depicted as being 'inauthentic'; that somehow the subject has become 'lost' or separated from his or her roots OR it is revealed that they have a 'non-traditional' past (Caribbean). This 'framing' has served to do two things - 1) non-Blacks assume that this is the correct depiction of Blacks so their suspician or aprehension in dealing with blacks is justified and 2) [young] Blacks take these images to heart and 'construct' part of their own identity from them or else they must live in conflict with their perceived difference. Part of the 'magic of the sale' is the fact that the purveyors of the 'image' are the people held in high esteem (entertainers, athletes). So in order to be 'authentic' to the publicized 'black identity', the young folks buy into the 'thug life' representation.

While I can agree to a point that this imaging is controlled by white men, some bame has to be heaped on the athletes and entertainers sign on to these representations and they know the negative outcome potential.

The difference in perception of african americans and africans (or people from the caribbean) is not just a south asina thing. i think it also exists (with maybe less intensity) in the various black communities too.

As for those community conflicts, one source is the feeling from blacks that their communities are constatly under 'invasion' by 'others' who are given opportunities [owning the local food joint] that are denied to blacks. This is a gross simplification of a very complicated situation, but that is what most people do.

So anyway, yo know your geographic anthropology Miss! "SEPTA", "West Philly" , "North Philly"

you sound like a 'round the way' gal!

this is primarily in response/dialogue with a questioner. it is long, but please do read. it’s not often that, I atleast, encounter people willing to discuss this sort of thing intelligently...

"As for there being 'some' subset of African Americans who 'buy into' the concept of hip-hop being the 'authentic representation of Black America' - I say this because I know some of those people. I talk to them regularly and they do 'buy into' that concept. Some get subscriptiosn and some buy an issue at a time, but they purchase regularly at the 'hip-hop is the voice of resistance' window. Hip-hop CAN be a voice of resistance, but like much in America, hip-hop is a product; a fashion and it is sold. Hell, 'resistance' is 'sold' as a fashion here - remember the "Rebel without a Cause", James Dean? Marketed 'rebelllion' is what he was."

Here is the issue, I believe and Franz Fanon (french -algerian anti-imperialist) I should think would agree: you have a mode of cultural expression formed by and utilized by "the opressed" (for lack of better term) against those that dominate politically, economically, what have you, so what is done? Those that dominate enable and perpetuate this form of cultural expression not so that it can bring change or transformation, but to freeze what is culture into remarkably ineffective and often self-defeating "tradition." Hip hop is no longer an engine for societal change, in fact variance is discouraged; rather, it is an engine for the propagation of stereotypes both in the black and non-black camps. For example, on the bus to campus this morning, I encountered an Asian girl (Singaporean) with rather loud hiphop emanating from her headphones. There is nothing particularly alarming or different about this girl. There are many other young Singaporean girls and boys with her musical tastes. The contradition (and I would say problem) arises once you consider the fact that this group as a whole will have nothing to do with black students--be they of african or african american descent. If they can avoid sitting beside them, they will. If they see them walking down the street at night, they will cross to the other side of the street. And heaven forbid they ever have a discussion with them (and find out that they just may be human). This of course does not represent the whole pie, only a piece and a very big piece at that. A similar sort of paradox can be found among white students, *enter non-black racial identity* students. So if the sale of hiphop music is not meant to "enlighten" people and bridge cultura gaps, what is it meant to do? Widen those gaps. As a questioner pointed out, it solidifies the perception that black people, though they might make good music, are trouble.
As far as the effect of the hiphop stereotype on black youth, I think it causes 4 types of indentity crises. The first, as mentioned by others on this forum, is the idea that hiphop must be personalized as the only means of cultural resistance and expression. The negative impacts that this might have go without saying. Growing up both in britain and america, I lived in predominately white neigborhoods, so I did not witness the split in black youth as I matured. However, it was ever so obvious as I watched my little sister’s friends, who bought into the “hiphop, r&b and no other alternative” idealogy, entrench themselves in the “Hiphop” life style from middle-school on upwards. I think that this is the first identity crisis--the idea that black culture is a monoculture. The second also pertains to this idea of monoculture, in that many black youth (myself included), who find that their interests, muscial and otherwise, are not inline with this monoculture attitude, are questioned and question the degree of their “blackness.” While the concept of blackness--that one’s skin tone or ethnic origin should determine one’s thought pattern and identity--is absurd; nevertheless it is a reality. This past year plus in university, I’ve seen these identity crises result in three major factions of black students on campus. One refuses to indentify and associate with anyone or anything that is not “black.” Another will have nothing to do with anyone or anything that is “black.” The last chooses to strike it out alone, excepting what comes. Whatever the case, there is no unity. It is amazing, how by supporting, enabling and facilitating the spread of hiphop music (and other cultural forms) the dominating faction has carried on the problems hiphop first aimed to highlight and comabat. This is not the only example of such a scenario. Consider what has become of jazz. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a jazz band or jazz choir with a single black sole in it. For the sake of “preservation,” the dominating party has appropriated the “oppressed’s” means of resistance. Consider bosa nova in Brazil. What was once developed for the “lower” classes, became the lounge music of the upper classes.

I agree with you..most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America. My susggestion, and I suggest it to [almost] all 'minorities' here in the USA, IF your plan is to be a citizen, then define yourself as 'American' and take ownership of your country. Stop renting your nation and buy in. This doesn't mean 'love it or leave it' but recognize who and what you are and run with it. WE can reshape this thing to be more representative of us too.
This is much easier said than done. If one does not have a solid grasp of himself how can he understand his place in society? I think you have contradicted yourself. If “most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America” let alone who they acutally are, how can they make the leap to identifing themselves as American? What is American? Then, how can they “own” this thing that is being American? If they are immigrants (naturalized or not) the issues still remains that they are not “American” whatever that is. They cannot just stand up and by saying “I am American” wash away there issues of identity. Nor will the majority accept them as “American” just because they say they are. I could detail my parent’s experience in this country, but I won’t for sake of time.

It galls me every time I meet someone whom I've spoken to over the phone or on-line and they say "Oh. I thought you were American. You are so articulate!"
I AM F***$%# American you idiot! And a college graduate to boot. Of course I'm articulate!!

This is just how I feel when I am first introduced to friends of friends, parents of friends, siblings of friends, who greet me with “Wow, I’ve heard so much about you, I thought you were white.” (I am NOT kidding!!)
And, “wow you are so articulate/educated for a black person!”
and, “your english is so good.”
“your mother received her medical training in lagos?”
and the list coud go on and on......

i really like this discussion, by the way, and sorry for the LONG post.

i forgot to add that i don't think there is anything wrong with Singaporean folk, or anyone for that matter, listening to hiphop...unless it's all about "b!@tches and hos"....

AQ,

LOL! Yeah, I know, we should avoid the personal hello's...but we do also engage in discussion! So it's even-steven, I say :) Now that we are introduced, we can move on and talk about cooler stuff. What's a 'round the way gal' (sorry, I'm completely inept at euphemism translations :P)? Actually, I hail from the Philly-ish area and have attended school/lived in other places. Okay, okay site admin, I'll move on now!

This 'framing' has served to do two things - 1) non-Blacks assume that this is the correct depiction of Blacks so their suspician or aprehension in dealing with blacks is justified and 2) [young] Blacks take these images to heart and 'construct' part of their own identity from them or else they must live in conflict with their perceived difference.

I agree. Also, I really find the second conclusion there very poignant. This idea that individuals are "living in conflict with their perceived difference" is something which may apply to many non-white groups in the US. That feeling of anomie seems to justify social suicides of sorts; *if I don't belong, then eff it, I will be something else.* For the desi diaspora, there is always a conflict between being loyal to Indian roots/culture/values, and being Americanized/modern/well-adjusted. However, individuals who do not fit neatly under the desi identity tend to commit social suicide, socializing with other "Alterna-desi's" (as we like to call ourselves) or non-Asian Indians completely.

However, for the diaspora, it is hard to just call oneself American, as think suggests (though I love that concept) because there are other facets to the identity of non-white Americans than simply American. Calling oneself simply "American" simultaneously denies the individual the history of their acculturation experience, which is what their American identity is about. But then, think is kinda justified in saying not to rent out our nation and buy in. I guess the real dilemma is that 'American' seems to be appropriated by society without many costs to the individual primarily when the individual is Western white. And the traumatic experience of non-whites in a still very much racist US is of realizing that even though we all say the pledge every morning in kindergarten, we are not all equal Americans, and that America is not indivisible where liberty and justice for all comes without obstacles. Can one self-reference as only American, when being American also includes being 'the other'? Additionally, within the diaspora, I feel that there is a concern to prevent a loss of identity, hence the self-referencing as South Asian or Asian American (with or without the 'hyphen', that's a whole 'nother discussion!).

Societal pressures to conform to one cultural identity over another silences voices of difference, which could also lead into think's idea that mainstream hip hop excludes "variant" hip hop, hence voices within communities. so while media and pop culture homogenize, the societal effect, to be an outsider/insider, to be American/Not, also homogenize. Uff...it's so pessimistic :(

Raj,

I'm South Indian; also, I'm "light skinned." I think what you meant to say is that skin color is directly correlated to melanin content in the skin. And while melanin content in the skin is genetically pre-determined, race is not because race is a social construct. If you want more biology for your membrane, the SNPs (single nucleotide polmorphisms) which are observed in genes which code for skin color show a high degree of homology across ALL so-called races. This means that there is only one skin color gene, everyone has it, and differences in the code for skin color is arbitrary and means basically nothing in terms of 'racial differences.' It is statistically impossible that races can exist biologically since differences in skin color is such an arbitrary biological phenomenon and since it is really only a measure of variance within one gene -- skin color. And since none of this is actually addressing what you mentioned :), I should say that I *think* I know what you mean, but that is true everywhere in India, man. I've seen large variances in skin color all over India -- North, Central, and South (I haven't been to Western India, yet).

Wait...why did you say "I do not know which part of India your folks are from. But, in the South, there are many Indian women who can pass for black...and among the Singaporeans of South Indian origin, this is especially true," anyway?

Remember to turn your clocks back on Sunday, y'all! Happy Saturday!

Best,
MudPhud Girl

MudPhudGirl:

No insult intended. I am from the South of India, but left India in my teens. Grew up partly in Singapore and the US. I am nearly 50 now. Lived in Singapore recently for abour 30 months. An African American friend of mine really wondered about the "black" women in Singapore...he did mistake the dark skinned Tamil women for black!

well they (dark-skinned Tamil folks) are 'black' - they're just not african. so i guess that helps to deflate silly thinking that equates skin color to attributes, intelligence, etc. the AA mistaking the Tamil women for 'black' is perfectly normal. Go to the African Horn or to New Orleans. In some places a black african might be mistaken for Tamil.

Think - killer post buddy! you hit a point i've tried to make more subtley on other threads in here. So many people want to be 'down' with the b-boy/hip-hop thing, but have nothing to do with the 'source' of that music (the people). It becomes 'packaged revolution' so they can feel sufficiently 'edgy' while not addressing the issues that gave birth to the art form. Sort of like how 'punk' as an attitude became 'new wave' as a style.

As for the embracing their 'American-ness', white Americans (for the most part) have little 'concept' of what that means or what they 'are' - beyond their own identity as individuals. As such, the question of 'what is white America?' never comes up because it is accepted as 'conventional thinking' that 'American' means 'white'. They have conditioned themselves (and are accepted by too many of us) to see themselves as the 'norm' - therefore no definition is necessary. Thus anything and everything is 'open' to invasion and co-option by whites. No disrespect, but like cockroaches, they're everywhere. I mean you can turn on the Discovery Channel at 2 AM for a special on animal husbandry in ancient Nepal and there will be some white guy waxing wise on the subject. I used to just scream "WTF!!! Why isn't there a Nepalese person with superior knowledge of this arcane subject?" But, I have stopped screaming and begrudgingly have to give props to the pasty faced dweeb who can step into the arena of Nepalesian animal husbandry with total confidence that he has game. You've got to have a grapefruit-sized pair of stainless steel 'ones' to be so confident. I think that minorities need to free themselves to be as 'variable' as whites. We need to say "Yup. I am complex so I can be anywhere and anything and you just have to deal with the fact that I won't fit in your preconceived box." The 'identity box' (to which Black kids either retreat, rebel or deny) while offering the comforts of a cultural 'home' also tethers them to a fixed location and limits the range of options... and opportunties. A similar box is built for Asians, Latinos and others too. I think that within the American context, the box is tougher to evacuate for African Americans, Native Americans and Puerto Ricans because they (for the most part) have little or no recollection of a time when they were not in that box (either forceably or otherwise). Nor can they point to another country from which they can concretely draw a link to themselves that has conquered the Western European juggernaut. Most other 'minority groups', if their arrival was largely fueled by immigration, can recall directly or thru living relatives, a world in which 'they' (people that look like them) did everything that had to be done. This frees a person to imagine a wider range of possibilities. That's liberation!

Free your mind and you ass will follow :-)

Now MPG, this isn't to say that they should abandon their cultural heritage - some guy named Joey Bago'donuts writes the definitive history of Motown and STILL eats pasta and wears his horn-of-plenty. He successfully balances the two 'cultures'. We can too. We can also, because of our inherent 'bi-lingualism' are actually better suited to it. Those of us caught betwixt and between are 'native speakers' from the way back. DuBois talked about 'the mask' and the need for African Americans to navigate in two worlds about 100 years ago (yes, Think, we can go old school here too - Franz Fanon! killer! boy, killer!)

so in short, ew've got the masks and the stealth, so lets go ninja and take this thing back.

We are the New 2nd World - Like AVIS, We Try Harder.

...and MPG....ahhhh!
I knew you were a Philly gal!

"I mean you can turn on the Discovery Channel at 2 AM for a special on animal husbandry in ancient Nepal and there will be some white guy waxing wise on the subject. I used to just scream "WTF!!! Why isn't there a Nepalese person with superior knowledge of this arcane subject?""

Questionnaire:

International organizations have a variable quota for staffing purposes. Until recently, say seven years ago, unless you were white, your chance of getting in through the American quota was zero. This is still the case at the Asian Development Bank, although they wont say it to your face. In 2000, I went to the ADB based in Manila to discuss about job opportunities. An Indonesian personnel officer looked at me and said that unless I had an Asian passport I did not have any chance of entering as Americans were overrepresented. The same night, another white American woman less qualified than I am was wined and dined by the ADB and was given the job, as she fit in to their perspective of being American and this was for a job in Malaysia and India, the countries where I have lived in and studied and also worked for extensive periods of time. As for her, this was her first visit to Asia and she did show up in the Discovery Channel from India. Eventually I ended up in Singapore.

you bore down to much Raj. not to dismiss your point but look beyond 'international organizations'. it registers almost no shock to most people that there is some white person holding themselves out as authorities on almost every and any subject. they are ubiquitous and we (the black, brown and beige) need to grab some of that 'spotlight' and run with it. i would love it if i could turn on the TV and there, pratling on as an expert in post WWII Poland and Catholicism was some Sri Lankan woman who was NOT married to a white guy and she is debating the significance of said church with a black man who is an expert on the collapse of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the impact of said power vacuum on the growth of radical Islam...and his name is DeShawn. You take my shit - I take your shit.

"would love it if i could turn on the TV and there, pratling on as an expert in post WWII Poland and Catholicism was some Sri Lankan woman who was NOT married to a white guy and she is debating the significance of said church with a black man who is an expert on the collapse of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the impact of said power vacuum on the growth of radical Islam...and his name is DeShawn."

Comment: Last June when I was passing through Japan I saw a Japanese woman talk about Poland and Catholicism from Poland and as far as I know she was not married to a white. Unfortunately it was all in Japanese...she was the expert on Europe. Then there is Lisa Ang of Channel News Asia in Singapore, married to a Filipino if I am right. She is the expert on western world..and hosts a program called High Life with Lisa Ang. Then of course there is another young lady named Diana Ser, and she is also an expert on the west. These are the only three women I know.

I see since ive moved to America you guys have posted more on this topic. Well im going to miss going to Sinapore, man those have got to be the most beautiful Asian women in the world. All mixed up. Club Phreak, man what a joint, but any hoot. Most foriegnors come to America and locate in the Black neighborhood and get rich off the Black Consumer. I grew up in Arlington , TX your not allowed to open a licquer store there. You have to go to the black communities to consume alchol. My wife is Asian and beautiful. We wnt to the international district in Seattle called uwajimaya, the Asian part of town. My wife said that some White men were giving the look like "What is a fine Asian girl like you doing with this Black guy", I caught on to it later, but what a feeling. I read Hyphen magazine. I read the interviews. I particuly like the one by momo chang.

Raj,

I would expect to see Asian people on TV in Asian countries as experts on toics other than Asia. Japan is a pretty homogeneous society (it is very much mostly Japanese). Now please don't start positng about how "you know some _____ non-Asian in "your Asian country name goes here". I think that with the exception of Singapore and Hong Kong, most Asian countries are pretty 'homgeneous' - now this homogeneity may be of a single ethinc group (like Korea) or it may be more diverse across the pan-Asian array (Singapore or The Phillipines) BUT it is still largely Asian. I am talking about in the US, Canada and Western Europe. Which of course is the source point for, and the geographic center of the original (but long lost) topic of this thread - the incredible explosion of Black Male/Asian Female 'couplings' on PRIME TIME (aka non-cable) TV in the US (and by extension Canada) despite the fact that such couplings are in the extreme minority in those same countries.

some People in here talk out the side of their necks. If im correct isnt Allen Keyes married to someone of sepia decent. I see theres a post in here about Bai Ling, I can name a tone of movies with her and Black dudes getting it on. I dont want to see her naked because she is to dam skinny.

http://www.jafa.org/

Check it this site people. If this keeps up Black dudes are gonna take completely over as sex gods

HMMM

"Societal pressures to conform to one cultural identity over another silences voices of difference"--mudphudgirl

Most definitely. It amazing the amount of individuality (and the variability it allows) we often may give up for the comfort of "belonging." Though this state of belonging brings little comfort at all---the myriad of indentity crises. Often times it seems as though minority groups emphasize external difference in hopes of washing away internal differences, but this cannot be done. Though we may share many commonalities as minorities and within our specific minority grups, each of us has an entirely different experience just as our white counterparts each have (and are free to with less judgement) entirely different experiences. This brings me to a questioner.

First up, thanks...I typed that at about 2:30am...sorry for the ridiculous amounts of typos...

"I think that minorities need to free themselves to be as 'variable' as whites. We need to say 'Yup. I am complex so I can be anywhere and anything and you just have to deal with the fact that I won't fit in your preconceived box'." --a questioner

I agree absolutely. Somehow it seems that to many people limited interests is also a part of being "black." And, I'm not pointing fingers at either blacks or non-blacks unilaterally. Professors can't seem to understand that it may be that a black student may not wish to write soley about "black themes." Advisors can't seem to understand that black students may want to take civ classes that may deal with cultures outside of their own. And, if we want to travel to a corner of the globe without a significant black history or community, we are put to the question. For example, when people discover that I want to go to Tokyo for a year, I always receive more raised eyebrows and questions than my other non-black counterparts as though it is normal for that they should strive to be "variable," but not for me. I am immediately asked if I really like anime or ninjas...both questions make me shiver. (as though Japanese culture (or any for that matter) can be whittled down to such simple catagories) I leave why this is up to the speculation of the reader. It never occurs to them that I may want to see the one ironic case of westernization during the advent of new imperialism, or appreciate a new way of living . This is something everyone should do if they have the chance, I think. Imagine if everyone came to understand that there are more ways--vastly different ways--of doing things than they had ever conceived. Imagine if they came to understand that their way is not necessarilly the right way. And imagine what liberation we would attain if we as minorities allowed ourselves this freedom to experience life outside of our own predetermined cultural construct.

Think - nice post. One of the most interesting aspects of 'culture' I have found in my travels (which are fairly broad) is that one of your points - "...there are more ways--vastly different ways--of doing things than they had ever conceived." - is something I both agree with....and disagree. In my travels I always find it interesting how many ways there are to live ...and how so many things are the same in so many lives. I think the more people travel and experience both the incredible diversity and commonalities of people in so many places, they would be much less inclined to demonize those 'unlike' themselves as the 'other'.

That said, as I watched Gray's Anatomy tonght I couldn't help but notice that a couple with a major part of the medical 'background' storyline reiterated the initial theme of this thread. You guessed it! An Asian Female and a Black Male. Now this has become much more than mere coincidence could explain. I am tempted to drop a note to the show's lead writer. What's up with that???

A Questioner:

are you serious? dude you really have too much time on your hands. Why does it bother you say much to see a black dude with and asian girl. TV is not reality. Greys Anatomy is going to fire Isiah Washington, Sandra Ohs Boyfriend. Dont get to happy, "Daybreak," will replace that lost. I didnt know so many Asian Girls thought Taye Diggs was hot. Well since TV is fantasy, time to fantasize more

"That said, as I watched Gray's Anatomy tonght I couldn't help but notice that a couple with a major part of the medical 'background' storyline reiterated the initial theme of this thread. You guessed it! An Asian Female and a Black Male. Now this has become much more than mere coincidence could explain. I am tempted to drop a note to the show's lead writer. What's up with that???

Answer: Majority of the audience is white, and majority of those are white females. White females do not like the idea of Asian females dating and marrying white men. You talk to a sample of white females at UCLA, this is a familiar complaint. Of course, they are ready to kill you if you suggest that they date Asian men. The TV network has to show some IR. Hence, they show black men with Asian women although they are in the minority.

"are you serious? dude you really have too much time on your hands. Why does it bother you say much to see a black dude with and asian girl. TV is not reality. Greys Anatomy is going to fire Isiah Washington, Sandra Ohs Boyfriend. Dont get to happy, "Daybreak," will replace that lost. I didnt know so many Asian Girls thought Taye Diggs was hot. Well since TV is fantasy, time to fantasize more."

Answer: More an escape from reality. Although black men-white women couple are more common, these would appear only in political commercials to smear the opponent, particularly in the south. Scare the white woman that a black man is coming after her or scare a white family that black men are after their daughter(s). Works in the south. Other than that, you will rarely see an interracial couple involving whites in good light.

It does not bother me. Actually I like it. The ER involving the South Asian British woman would make the color conscious Indians who prefer "fair skin" squirm. I like to sit back and watch them get ulcer.

http://www.jafa.org/

Check it this site people. If this keeps up Black dudes are gonna take completely over as sex gods

Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 12:56 AM

A cultural exchange program between black americans and japanese students automatically correlates into black men turning into the ideal, or sex gods? Dude, give your head a shake. I am not hating on anyone, but from my experiences, most asian-desi women are not interested in black men. Going black men crazy, as an earlier poster put it, is laughable. Is that how you measure yourself; literally? By "spending" a week with some random slut(mentioning the street really authenticates it, by the way, lol). This kind of promiscuity is the major force behind the hiv epidemic in the African-American community. No intelligent, worth-while woman would fall victim to that kind of deviant crude approach. I think the bigger question is, why are so many black men not having relationships with black women, is it an indication of their own inferiority complex?

KashmiriJatt
There are so many things wrong with your post (and I mean this in the most inoffensive way possible) that I don't even know where to begin. If I didn't have to write a paper on marx, smith, neo liberalism and deindustrialization tonight, I'd deal with them, but for now, just consider the following.
" This kind of promiscuity is the major force behind the hiv epidemic in the African-American community."--I'm not African American, but not only is this a logical fallacy, it is incredbily insulting.
"I think the bigger question is, why are so many black men not having relationships with black women, is it an indication of their own inferiority complex?"
This could use a whole lot of explaining. Consider not only what you imply about black men, but also what you imply about black women (and as I black woman, I find this very insulting).
But I'll be back to address this in more detail.

Kasmirjatt:

Well to be honost with the mass majority of relationships between Black men are with Black Women. Black on black marriage is still in the mid 90s. HIV is not just a epidemic in the black community, but world wide. Its very high in India as well. So sweep around your own back door before you sweep around mine. Dont worry, I dont really know to many black dudes crushing down doors to get a Desi chicks, or any other Asian chick for that matter, and if so like wise, cool. I had some friends in England working for the Dept of State. They were dating these Desi chicks. Some jelious desi dudes told her their parents behind their backs. One of the guys was mad because the girl he liked dismissed him. Revenge I guess.

Maybe this will help answer some of the questions between mudphudgirl and a questioner

http://www.amherst.edu/~nsharma/research/hip-hop.html

a questioner:

in one of your earlier qoutes, you thought it was strange that a Black man was an expert on European culture? Correct me if im wrong. Dr Sharma is Indian, but she teaches Black American studies at Univ of Cali. Would you find that bizarre as well? Would you consider that maybe some things do exist, such as dating between Asians/black and whom ever? Read Dr Sharmas credits below.

http://www.wcas.northwestern.edu/asianamerican/people/faculty.html#NitashaSharma

cool/Anonymous,

I appreciated the link provided above on Nitasha Sharma's work. AQ and I hadn't gotten to the point yet of discussing the popularity of hip-hop "culture" amongst second generation South Asians, so I think you beat us to it!

In her Samar article, Sharma writes:

"What would upwardly mobile, predominantly middle class Indians with immigrant backgrounds have in common with blacks in America?"

In her publication, she also (in line with that thought process) asks:

"1) Why would some members of an upwardly mobile, predominantly middle-class immigrant “model minority” community choose to identify with a group—Blacks—that has been constructed as “disadvantaged”? 2) How do South Asian Americans use hip hop to create and express second-generation identities in urban America that challenge the narrow identity politics of ethnicity? and 3) What is the potential of Black popular culture for fostering interracial alliances between Blacks and South Asians in the U.S.?"

I think that while she answers these questions through a Marxian lens, the IndoLink article written by Francis Assisi adds a spatial analysis which I think also informs what Sharma's arguments are.

"In the process young second generation South Asians in North America are also challenging current theories of race and inter-ethnic relations. As one scholar pointedly observes, “these not-black not-white children of South Asian immigrants are negotiating spaces in the folds of Afro American culture.” [...] Another scholar comments that the Desi youths turn to black culture may be a key to marking their belonging in the multi-ethnic, urban landscape as well as the ultimate definition of "cool." [...] Indian-American youth who grew up in the cities alongside Blacks and Latinos, and went to school with them, and even some who did not, often perform, or acquire "the style, and the attitude, and the walk" associated with that youth subculture."

Sharma and Assisi both seem to imply that hip hop has given second generation South Asians political mobility. Another scholar, Neil Smith, writes (in his 1992 article "Contours of a Spatialized Politics: Homeless Vehicles and the Production of Geographical Scale") on the use of "absurd vehicles" as means to provide space to "facilitate basic needs." The desis that Sharma talks about -- the ones who suffered job losses and were forced to move to urban areas at the start of the hip hop movement -- are not surprisingly the individuals most likely to utilize the "vehicle" that is hip hop in becoming politically empowered. In Smith's words, hip hop's "absurd" appeal to South Asians (as in Sharma's original question: "What would upwardly mobile, predominantly middle class Indians with immigrant backgrounds have in common with blacks in America?") "depends on its practicality" to the disempowered South Asian American. It "expresses and exposes the relations of empowerment and disempowerment" defining his or her experience as the racially and spatially displaced 'other.'

While privileged white America excuses (via the Model Minority Myth, homogenization, etc.) South Asian Americans from "active civic responsibility and simultaneously denies them personhood" through the loss of jobs, or their shifting from wealthy neighborhoods to poor urban ones, South Asian hip hop "illuminates this social reality, [...] supporting the rights of these groups to refuse marginalization." South Asian hip hop overcomes "social dislocation" imposed on South Asians relocated as a result of the 1970s economic crisis, allowing them to "make and remake space," hence mobilizing them against white patriarchy's hegemonic control. Hip hop, for South Asians, expresses how inherently spatial the politics of daily life is. Most of all -- even if South Asians relocated to urban areas in the '70s were later able to move out to suburban, wealthier areas -- hip hop remains a way which South Asian second genners born to those who lost their jobs can "jump scales" as a "political strategy of resistance."

So hip hop, of the South Asian variety, seems to be an absurd thing; But in its absurdity lies the practical function of being able to politically moblize disempowered South Asians through music (rapping)/dancing/tagging/DJing. So in the same way that hip hop acts as a manifestation of resistance movements for blacks, so does it for South Asians.

I really hope I wasn't as confusing as Judith Butler there. Take me down if I was, and I will explicate peeps. (NOTE: anything in quotes is not my work. I don't want Neil Smith, or the others, coming down on my a$$ for plagiarism on a blog thread, LOL!)

Loved the articles Anonymous/cool.

Best,
MPG

Oh and BTW, RYC to AQ:

in one of your earlier qoutes, you thought it was strange that a Black man was an expert on European culture?

Where's she do that?! Did she really?! I dunno if that's such good form, dude :(

*Back to Work!*

I just realized...My bad if cool and Anonymous just before my post at 2:41 pm were not the same people. Get better pseudonyms people!

-MPG

This kind of promiscuity is the major force behind the hiv epidemic in the African-American community."--I'm not African American, but not only is this a logical fallacy, it is incredbily insulting.

Unfortunately the CDC provides evidence that substantiates my assertion. Here is the link: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/slides/race-ethnicity/index.htm

Anon and cool (one and the same???)

WHERE did I write or WHAT did you read that stated, theorized, hinted at or implied that I thought it odd in any way that a Black man could, would or should be an expert in European culture???? I think I CLEARLY (at least it was to me) stated that I was sick and tired of the constant barrage of white persons waxing expertly on subjects that were far reomved from their cultural heritage and that I longed for the day when I would get to see black\brown\beige people talking as experts on topics OTHER THAN being black, brown or biege. Despite the fact that I dislike her politics, I enjoyed seeing Condi Rice in the pre-GWB years speaking as an expert on the Russian - nee Soviet Union - political scene. How refreshing!!

MPG!!!! I got your little ditty! I am coming back at ya'!

mudpudgirl:

I will admit. The best hip hop songs are mixed with indian beats. all Timberland stuff, I really like that song by truthful hurts. I know they sampled that song from a famous Indian singer. Can you tell me her name. this might help you below

http://www.amherst.edu/~nsharma/research/hip-hop.html

Hey cool,

The woman who sings in the playback music in Truth Hurts is Lata Mangeshkar (An amchigeli aka fellow Konkani, woot woot!...though I guess I'm only allowed half of that claim to fame...). Her music was very popular when my parents were young and...ummm...in love. Her younger sister, Asha Bhonsle, is also quite popular. If you want to get some oldschool hindi albums of their music, I would suggest music from films like Aradhana,Guide, Shor (from 1972), and anything from that era that an Indian store owner starts telling stories of his love life over. But I'll warn you cool, hindi music from the 70s ain't that hot without the beats to cover up the shrill notes. Sorry if I offended any hardcore Bollywood fans here :P

Ah! BTW...Timbaland is a rapper. Timberland is a shoe brand more lovingly called Timz by people down with the thugish life. And I dunno who that random girl is singing in his song. Her name is Rajeshwari or sumfin or other...

Not to be all anti-climactic on you cool, but I actually hate hip hop songs that sample Indian music. I always feel ripped off. For example, the song by BEP called Elephunk Theme has a very popular South Indian song sampled in it, and I highly highly highly doubt that Fergie Ferg was down wit dem Thugulus in South India enough to get her mix done. Ripping other people's work off sucks. And not to mention, the way it is done in the US mainstream music scene is downright orientalist. :/

As far as music for the desi diaspora goes, I prefer the UK Bhangra scene. If you want good music there, I could prolly advise you better.

I think I totally threadjacked. Oh well!

Best,
MPG

Mudphudgirl:

Wow, you just sounded like my mother. When ever a hip hop song comes on the hook would be some old Motown, or stax record joint. She would say all youll doing is ripping off my generation. None of these songs are new and all these dances were out when I was in high school. Since Gospel is the fundamental element, or the Negro sprituals as historians calls it, is the fundamental base for all black music, or music that was derived out of the black community. As I got older I started to listen to a lot of music from her era. It all made sense, I realized were all this music came from. To make a long story short, I understand what you mean when you say Hip Hop today has lost a lot of its originality. I think a lot has to do with commercialism. which will be the demise of this art form. I like jay sean, and sumeet they are good. Have you heard of them? Sorry if I took a wrong turn but always thanks for your time.

When I was in Singapore that song by truthful hurts came on in the club everybody junped on the dance floor, alot people of Indian decent were singing that hook. They like Missy Elliot down there to

cool,

wow...your mom? i'm barely older than two decades!

in any case, i'm sure other people like that music. i hope i have not misrepresented myself here: i don't speak for my generation or "my people" when i say that. i simply don't like south asian hip hop or hip hop that rips south asian music.

as for bhangra: jay sean is okay. never heard of sumeet. sukshinder shinda is pretty good. mehsopuria has an edgier sound. jassi sidhu is good. in the us, there is bikram singh. daler mehendi's younger brother mika singh is also putting some tight joints out. rdb (rhythm dhol n' bass) is pretty good, depending on what day and mood you see them in. malkit singh, of course...jazzy bains...etc...

i think i should stop talking about music now. or else i'll start talking about shostakovich and then this thread will go to sh*t.

oh yeah, and AQ! i won't wait forever :)

-MPG

Hi MPG,

yet another astonishingly in-depth post. how do you do it? by the by, i did get back to you! you will probably be surprised, but i hope you didn't see it and send it to junk.

PS: now i am going to dig into your music list and expand my horizons!

evidence it exist

http://members.tripod.com/blackandasiannetwork/ba_couples.htm

Is KashmiriJatt for real?
The CDC slides show there are higher percentage of blacks affected by AIDS. and that is all the slides are showing. But immediately KashmiriJatt concludes that it must be because blacks are more promiscuous...
I am African and I find this beyond offensive: the misuse of statistics to affirm your racism. And the shame of it is that you are posting on a "hyphen" forum.

Hey AQ,

Oy veh. Sorry, I deleted that account cuz I thought you'd peaced out. If you want, you can always leave comments on my site.

Meanwhile, I was watching Ugly Betty last night (online) and was intrigued by the WM/BF couple (Wilhemina Slater and the hick guy). On the show, Wilhemina generally has interracial suitors who are younger to her, and she is also a power-businesswoman. I think this is a positive and realistic portrayal of her relationships with men. Women who are non-white and compete in the high-speed arenas of corporate business, medicine, law, etc., generally tend to find a dating pool skewed away from their own race and even age. In the real world, not in college like where I am, there is more opportunity for women to jump scales in terms of who they date. Particularly in urban areas, I feel that women don't necessarily have to confront issues like stigma from the diaspora on interracial dating or dating younger. In George Simmel's terms, that urban blase plays into a woman's ability to be a mobile dater instead of one who has to stay within restricted boundaries of who it is acceptable to date. However, why is it that the only suitor we find acceptable for Wilhemina--a single mother who can most certainly sustain her own extravagant lifestyle without the help of a husband--is a hick from Texas who is in her income bracket, older, white male, a father, and commitment friendly? Is Wilhemina Slater not fulfilling her traditional role unless she gets with a man like that?! *RAWR!!! I don't like it!*

On the other hand, getting married to interracial and younger suitors is a decision influenced by the diaspora. Marriage, like in Shakespeare's tragedies, is the joining of two families. When families, meshed in the fabric of both urban and diasporic spaces, get involved, the decisions taken by an interracial couple become complicated by identity politics. As a viewer watching ER's Neela and Michael date, I was okay with it because nothing seemed to interfere with their relationship; they were able to date without letting other people know too much about them. On the other hand, when they decided to get married, the first thought that came to my mind was what will her parents think.

-MPG

I think times are some what changing, as generations go by, people way of thinking will change with time and their surroundings. My Indian female friend in college told me that it was kind of traditional that their Indian parents pick their husbands and wives. Sorry, but im not marrying no one im not in love with. She rebelled against her parenst because she didnt like the guy. I guess she became to westernized for them? Did anyone see the movie "Face"?

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1800171560

I guess this was the movie that started it all. Mississippi Masala. A young Denzel Washington and a pretty Indian Canadian

KashmiriJat
this i a bit late but--
With regards to your statistics and sources--let us assume for a moment that it was stated that promiscuity was the discriminating factor, it is beyond naïve to believe that publishers of data do not have an agenda. I am not purporting some sort of diabolical conspiracy theory. Rather, I am simply saying that people have motive. If the IMF published an article of their research on the effects of neo-liberalization would you not take their conclusions with a pinch of salt? I should hope you would especially if the conclussion did not stand up to logicall scrutiny. As such, it is also inane to use sexual promiscuity as the discriminating factor concerning the prevalence of HIV in the African-American (or any) population. The African Americans that I know (and not necessarily personally) are no more sexually promiscuous than their Caucasian counterparts. In fact, in many cases, they are less. However, one very obvious discriminating factor is the possession of knowledge of and use of contraceptive/preventive methods in either party. More often than not white women are better equipped with knowledge about modes of contraception and prevention than non-white women the world around. They also typically have better access to these methods. What more, in the event that a white girl or woman becomes pregnant she or her family is better enabled to “deal with it,” if you will. I have known many more white girls and women who have become pregnant but aborted it than black girls/women who became pregnant and could not for varying social/economic and cultural reasons. White women are also, once again for socio-economic reasons, better equipped to receive treatment when they contract STDs to stop the spread and prolong their lives and health. Moreover, for varying socio-cultural reasons, white women are better able to prevent the contraction of STDs. The position of women the globe around is no where near as nice as it is for white women. The prevalence of domestic rape in Africa and Asia goes without saying. The majority of women who are infected with HIV in these places, are infected by husbands who (ill equipped with knowledge or preventative measures not necessarily more promiscuous than their Caucasian counterparts) come home and infect them. They are not sleeping around or otherwise behaving in a sexually promiscuous manner. Often times, these women are married young and enter into marriage with little to no knowledge of sex, its ramifications and consequences other than the fact that you have sex and you may end up pregnant. They are also ill equipped to say no, meaning they often don’t even have this right legally. I could continue on this subject, but all one needs to do is google (m y verb for research) women’s issues the world around and HIV and the use of and education concerning contraception and prevention to know these things.

think,

AMEN.

-MPG

Think - you are certainly on point, but I betting that you are talking to deaf ears.

Unlike what some posters have stated - AF/WM couplings are much more prevalent in the media than AF/BM couplings, despite some high profile AF/BM couplings (the reason for the AF/BM couplings is primarily due to the fact that the de facto casting choices in ensemble "racially diverse" casts are BM and AF rather than BF and AM).

BM/WF couplings are also very prevalent (and may be the most common IR coupling on TV shows).

Heres a website of people who may some what differ because they are products of asian/ black marriges. So this could be a relity to them.

http://www.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=630573

i think that asians should get togetther with black. because why is it
hard to find blacks and asians but easy
to find whites and asians.tey dont even give us the time to talk to them.

This pairing of an Asian girl aka Indian girl with a black guy is so so rare.......why not portray that which is more common rather than less common?

What gets me is...........why always always have a black person as part of the EQUATION? Isn't it remotely possible to mix another two ethnic misses which are as unlikely as AW/BM?

God help us and by the way.....I agree fully with Kashmirjat

Mindi:

Its usually whites dudes. Like 98 percent of the time. Its also rare for Black men, for that matter even Asian men are never part of the equation. you cant honostly say you see this all time on TV. Its a smart move, when ever black people are shown it always gets people attention. Mindi went as far to say God help like what a big sin it is to place a BM/AW. Im Black/Asian of mix so understand my concern. I love my father whose African American, as my mother who is Japanese.

Your typical black doctor is an affirmative action retard who continues to lag his classmates throughout his/her career. Medical dramas are politically-correct fantasies with no semblance to reality.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/prop209.htm

Yea, cowards like you are jelious for what ever reasons anonymous. If Affrimative Action help Ben Carson the most reknowned neurosurgeon in the world get into Yale, im for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson

Hey, Greys Anatomy and ER you gotta love it.

who wouldve ever thought michelle of "yellowrage" was with a black dude

Any preferences in dating and/or marriage? What kind of person are you attracted to (Korean? Half/Mixed?), or does it not matter?
I'm in a long-term relationship (10 years!) with the father of my daughter, and he is African American. During our relationship, we have taken "breaks" from one another and dated other people, and I have dated Asians and mixed race men during those times, but we've always ended up back together. I think in a perfect world, I probably would really like being with someone who is full Asian or mixed race Asian -- but oftentimes that's more an ideal than reality. Reality is that people are individuals, and not everyone is going to click just because they're the same race. So I think though it's good to have the ideal in mind, we also have to be realistic and recognize when we've found someone really special, regardless what race they are.

Oh, the great Dr. Ben Carson. American media (and society) wants to see successful and educated black men because they hardly exist. It's a good disguise for actual reality, that black men are far more likely to commit violent crimes, have IQ's that are a standard deviation below the norm, far more likely to abandon their children, and in general be a burden on society. Black men have to be tolerated because they would otherwise riot and destroy cities as they have in 1968 and 1994.

Well thats what the American media and guys like you want us to believe. If you want a lesson on achievements made by AA ill be more than happy to give you that lesson. I can tell you are not the type, You thrive of ignorance and capitalize off the notions of stereotypes placed on minorities in America. Could it be Jeliousy? Its Obvious to see you have no real grasp of American history as well. Yes, you were right to call DR. Carson "GREAT," that he is. Have you heard of the great DR. Charles Drew. The discoveries he made in medecine are milestones and can be topped by few MDs of any color. I can go on until infinity, but why waste time talking to deaf ears. People are individuals first and a race second.

The truth is that women of all races what men who can provide for them. So I fail to see why any women of any race whould want a black male. He gets all the perks without the responsibility.

Did some black guy break your heart? Sounds like it.

Does your probational officer know your on line.

Well thats what the American media and guys like you want us to believe. If you want a lesson on achievements made by AA ill be more than happy to give you that lesson. I can tell you are not the type, You thrive of ignorance and capitalize off the notions of stereotypes placed on minorities in America. Could it be Jeliousy? Its Obvious to see you have no real grasp of American history as well. Yes, you were right to call DR. Carson "GREAT," that he is. Have you heard of the great DR. Charles Drew. The discoveries he made in medecine are milestones and can be topped by few MDs of any color. I can go on until infinity, but why waste time talking to deaf ears. People are individuals first and a race second.

Posted by: RELAX at January 6, 2007 01:00 PM

Oh yes, the great conspiracy against black people perpetrated by the white boogey man. Give it a rest, there are an inordinate amount of black actors portraying doctors, engineers, presidents, etc on television. Just look at scrubs, er, and grey's anatomy, an unrealistic representation of black doctors. As an Asian Indian male should I scream and whine that these programs do not reflect the real world where the percentage of South Asian physicians is ~44%?

Do what you want, I dont care. Just keep your mouth shut and see how far you go.

Relax,

I do not hold any bias or aversion towards "blacks", but I do take exception with the propagation of false ideals and assertions. Just analyse your comments, and those of other black men in this discussion. They define their worth by how many women they lay, is this an honourable metric to measure oneself against?

I beg to differ, but any hoot your beef isnt with me, Im sure you think it is. I didnt start this blog. It was started by Rinku Sen. Sounds like an Indian name to me. Ask her why this subject holdS so much interest for discussion. I wish people like you go to the source and do a better job of hiding your jeliousy.

Well all I can say is I'm a BM and I'm a network engineer, I make over 60K a year. I'm not a womanizer, and I treat all with respect. Most of you seem to believe Sterotypes, and it's sad. In TV/Movies BM are soon as bad people, again it's a sterotype thats all. It's not to be taken at face value.
That would be me believing that all Asian know Martial Arts, again thats another stero type...or that cause your asain your good at math. Maybe cause your a asain male you have a small penis.

These are all stupid sterotypes. If you want to know about BM then ask one. If I want to know about Asain people I ask. Go to he source and don't let Movies and TV tell you what to think.

It's not an issue of being jealous, it's about projecting/portraying reality.Again, the vast majority of South Asians marry within their own "race" and religion, the numbers don't lie.

This was merely a story contrived to cause controversy because, again, it's an anomaly. I have no need to be jealous nor am I directing animosity or frustration towards you or any black men, but I take exception with individuals,a jaded Rinku Sen included, who say this is a common occurrence within the South Asian community. If you can't face the fact that the majority of South Asian females don't find black men attractive, that is your issue, not mine.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1090

Excerpt pertaining to South Asians:

People from South Asian backgrounds were the least likely of the minority ethnic groups to be married to someone from a different ethnic group. Only 6 per cent of Indians, 4 per cent of Pakistanis, and 3 per cent of Bangladeshis had married someone outside the Asian group. As well as cultural and racial differences, people from South Asian backgrounds generally have different religions to people from other ethnic groups which may explain their relatively low inter-marriage rate. People who described their ethnicity as ‘Other Asian’ were more likely to have married a non-Asian person (18 per cent).

My favorite movie,KashmiriJatt dont speak for all south Asian women, Denzel could be my husband anyday

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mississippi_masala/

Lavina,

Read my post again. I said the "majority" of South Asian women do not find black men attractive. Also, do you think Denzel is reflective of the average black man? I am sure a lot of women would find a movie star alluring. It's seems as if there is a concerted effort here to mask the truth and project black men as some sort of hot commodity, perhaps in an attempt to convince some naiev women who frequent this site into hooking up with them. Just peruse other Asian blogs and sites regarding this issue and the majority of posters are black men trying to play games.
http://www.goldsea.com/Poll/AFBM/afbm.html

Well as a BM, I don't think i'm a hot comodity. Kash I do think your somewhat right. The main thing is Asian women marry other asain or WM. Most seem to look at it as a social thing, instead of a he's a man and I love him period.

Well for the statement BM are playing games the correct response are some men do that just as some women do. To single out a race of people for only one thing...thats is racism in it's purest form. Where do u get these reasonings from. Have u dated a AA person. Have you studied there actions yourself or are you just repeating things you've read from other people or have heard from other people.

All I'm saying is don't judge anyone you don't know. Get to know the person then judge. If every1 had that logic kash there would be no interracial marriage

Lexx,

I don't have any ulterior motives or a hidden agenda, nor am I simply cherry picking statistics to bolster my assertions. I am simply presenting facts. Interracial marriage in the SA community is very limited, not only with blacks, but every race, even within the community itself their are strong demarcations that separate religion, race, and language. Why are people angry or crying racism when I'm merely stating the obvious? I've never dated an AA woman. I would date an AA woman if we shared the same religion and socioeconomic status, but there isn't an abundance of AA Sahajdhari Sikhs, most are either Christian or Muslim, groups with whom I don't have a strong affinity.

OK, point made time to move on.

Where are we moving to :)

As a small aside, Kashmir, your statistics appear to be from the UK. This discussion was rooted in the USA. Also, the excerpt you quoted made no mention of 'not finding [AA] men attractive' but just on the outcomes of marriage. The 'attraction' bit was conjecture on your part.

As has been pointed out [way back in this now totally overblown thread], WHEN asian women 'out-marry', their tendency is to marry white AND YET there area number of USA TV programs which depict AA/BM couples - at a % far beyond that that 'real world' statistics would support. Why? Therein lies the rub.

Also, I presume your "~44%" value is the number of South A men that become doctors? It certainly isn't the % of doctors in the US who are South Asian. In fact, I find those stats 'suspect' - one might equally argue that the remaining 56% are working at Dunkin' Donuts, gas stations or motels throughout the US. Are you prepared to sign on to that as well?

Lastly, the site\blog you used to 'defend' your position or defame Lavina's post regarding Denzel Washington seems to have be posts from December 2002. Hardly contemporaneous with this discussion.

IF you are seeking to press a largely emotionally based point of view, please don't defame the work of others by misrepresenting or twisting it into convuluted shapes just to bolster your point.

IF you are amongst your cited "44%" I would suspect that you have an appreciation of and respect for the objective tools of science. Display that.

kashmirjatt:

This is a response from one of your earlier comments. DR. Daniel Williams, first DR to succesfully perform open heart surgery. DR. Charles Drew invented blood plasma, the different blood types. Dr Ben Carson first DR to successfully seperate siamese twins. These Doctors are world reknown and their legacy lives on through a generation of African American Doctors today. I can go on until infiniti. Research before you stereotype a whole race. This is a Asian website, so I try to keep my topics away from my Black American half, but when I meet people such as you I have to defend. Dare to be different learn, get away from all the dumb stereotypes you see on MTV and BET. Maybe MTV Desi, if anyone watches it

Relax,

Unfortunately your knowledge of medicine and its innovations seems a bit lacking and skewed. Dr. Williams-who was bi-racial btw-did not conduct the first successful open heart surgery. He repaired a knife wound not in the heart muscle itself, but to the precardium(the outer sac that envelopes the heart). No doctor or medical expert considers that open heart surgery. Also, he wasn't the first to do that either. Henry Dalton conducted the same procedure two years prior. Perhaps you should seek unbiased sources of information while conducting your own "research" rather than relying on the propaganda contained within Black History month texts and pamphlets. It's sad that there are individuals such as yourself who propagate these erroneous stories and create myths as a means of propping up your community.

Now moving on to questioner's post.

The statistics are indeed from the UK, but they accurately reflect the marriage trend of the Indian Diaspora worldwide. I am sure I could track down similar studies commissioned in Canada/EU that subtantiate my assertion. The classification of Indians under the Pan-Asian umbrella in America makes it a bit harder to get accurate data. Regardless, I am confident the trend holds true there as well. I won't even bother addressing the attractiveness issue, because people here are quite sensitive and extrapolate racism from honest and frank comments.

I am not 'pushing' an emotionally driven set of arguments, rather people such as yourself choose to react in an emotional way when presented with facts that shed a not so flattering light on the AA community.

Lastly, you honestly think that comments or data presented from December of 2002 are not, as you put it, contemporaneous in this case? Wow, things quickly become archaic and antiquated in your world. Take your own advice and analyse complex issues in a critical, unemotional, and detached manner, even if the results are difficult to stomach.

While the posting dates may not coincide directly with the airing of this programme & the insuing comments on this blog, the atmosphere and spirit of the discussions are the same.

Well, I see you never heard of the one drop rule. It was law in those days that if you had one drop of black blood you were black. You are a person in denial, so if you do not believe me then to all else in here read the post. KashermiriJatt its you who supports the stereotypes the media places on different races. I have never seen these achievers listed below herald in text books, history books, nor TV. I bet if the commentary was negative, you would support it. Im not saying your stats are inaccurate, but I can vouch for those of us that are mixed with black, starting with myself. Maybe we are a minority amongst minorities, but we exist. Im half, but the world identifies me as a black, which is cool. Ask Tiger Woods, Amerie, Deinise Lawton, Cassie, notables. If you look at MTV, or golf youve seen these faces. I dont know how we got on this issue of race and stereotypes, but stick to the Subject. Better yet after tonite lets retire the post and watch Greys Anatomy and ER together, gotta love primetime. Lavina is a friend of mine she was visiting when she wrote her post. Kashmirijett what is your obsession with this post? Why did you dig it out the archives when it was dead? Let it go, let your jeliousy on this subject go. We catch your drift. Thank Rinku Sen for this outstanding blog before you go.

http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/DrWilliams.htm

http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/DrWilliams.htm

http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/philipemeagwali.html

http://www.bioethics.gov/about/carson.html

Kashmiri,

well written and a susccesful attempt at sounding irritably erudite, but 2002 on a blog that would appear to be 'dead' (if nothing new has been posted since then) is NOT contemporaneous to this discussion as the TV programs cited were (for the large part) not being broadcast in 2002. Using your logic, one insipid blog page refuting the occurrence of the Holocaust would equal a reason to give such flights of lunacy credence in serious scholarship. Not gonna' happen.

"Attractiveness", while not worthy of your attention, would seem to be a different issue than 'marriage'. People get married for LOTS of reason and attractiveness may or may not be one of them. If you are unmarried, I could easily give 3 guesses way. No matter how 'certain' you are of the correctness of your opinion, your 'causal' link was conjecture on your part...just admit it.

My post was not intended to refute your assertion, but to illustrate that you seem to posit as 'evidence' of foul weather in New York photos of rain clouds in Yorkshire. Bringing a bit more of the typical 'Yank' to the fray - that dog won't hunt. Go get better data. If you've got the wherewithal to chastise African Americans, it seems only reasonable that you spend the time and energy to dig up some AMERICAN (USA, not North or South) data. And by the way, I would doubt that Canada would consider itself a part of the EU.

Lastly, while Relax may have made some erros in his\her 'fact-checking' do you actually believe that African Americans have simply lounged about and done nothing in their lengthy stay in North America? That is ...well, idiotic. It simply flies in the face of statistical logic that of some 40 million (I believe the present count) people none (or no reasonable percentage) of them have achieved success and accomplishment in areas OTHER THAN sports and entertainment? Think logically! Then go read Vijay Prashad.

Assuming your "~44% doctors" value is also from the UK (once again, I express my doubts) does it not occur to you that when looking at immigrant communities to previous colonial 'masters' there is a tendency for said 'colonial' power to screen out the least desireable elements from the immigrant wave? Thus, in sort of an 'unnatural selection', those that 'make it' to the 'mothership' are preselected to be 'the better and the brighter' of the colony community. This was certainly the case in Canada and the USA both of whom exercised strict controls on the 'type' of person they would admit from India - doctors, engineers, scientists and similar. The 'average' guy couldn't get past the 'home country' screening process to get TO the UK, thus you don't see the "also rans" - they didn't make it.

Oy Vey!

A questioner:

For once I agree with you, not wholeheartedly, but for the most part. This debate has been around the world and back again. Kashmirajatt why do you reveive it

A) I didn't re-hash or revive the conversation. I was simply replying to messages directed towards me.

B) Questioner, drawing parallels between my points and holocaust deniers is a flimsy attempt at trying to discredit me. You like to drape your commentaries with floral and academic verbiage; here is a term you should look-up, non-sequitur. You clearly have an illogical train of thought. Also, you don't need to give me a geography lesson. I am well aware that the European Union is physically discrete from Canada. I linked the two because of their system of racial classification, which is broader and more accurate than its American counterpart.

C)Relax, obviously my advice fell on deaf ears. I made it abundantly clear that pericardium procedures do not constitute "open-heart surgery." The first successful(without any complications) surgery on the heart itself was performed by Ludwig Rehn of Germany.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3888132&dopt=Abstract

I am not obsessed with this story, but again, I take exception with individuals who promulgate and espouse lies. Your misinformation regarding Dr.Williams and the first heart surgery may seem insignificant or perhaps just a matter of semantics, but it is a deliberate attempt at changing history and disserves science and its great innovators who discovered or created instruments and ideas that have contributed to humanity. However,it appears that we can agree on one thing. This is a fruitless dialogue and it serves no further purpose to continue on with this cyclical process of me stating facts and facing emotional and misinformed replies.

Relax,

There is a marked difference between inventing or discovering something and simply receiving a patent for an alteration, which may or may not be even be an improvement, of an existing property.

http://inventors.about.com/od/blackinventors/a/black_myths.htm

The columnist falls short of completely being honest and frank, but it does give some insight on the topic.

Here is a more comprehensive list of so called black inventors and their inventions

http://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions/

Well like always someone will refute history. Elvis was the first artist to sing "You Aint Nothing But a Hounddog and "Blue suede Shoes", NO, Big Mama Thorston. The Beatles were the first to sing " Twist and shout", No, it was the Isley Brothers. See were im going with this. Good try KJ. Not credidible, stay off those White Supremist websites.

Relax just drop it. You can't change a racist or a closet racist. He is stuck in his world so just leave him behind. eventually his kind will die off just give it time. No need to waste energy on people who like to trust truths to server there own needs. NEXT SUBJECT!!!

KJ,

You are a sad fellow. the 'linkage' of your use of an (apparently) dormant blog to similar nonsense based arguments refuting the Holocaust is clear, simple and entirely 'logical' - blogs are well known for their incredible inaccuracies and their tendency to eschew 'fact' in favor of rhetoric that supports the position of the blogger [and his/her supporters]. So, your use of a dead blog with 5 year old posts DOES discredit you. IF your 'opinion' on the issue was indeed and in fact so universally held, then there would be RECENT posts on credible, fact-verified sites supporting your assertions. You've posted none. GONG! You are OFF the island. Oh, and on the quality of racila classifications, while I am no expert on the matter, I suspect that both the EU AND the Canadian 'tables' are missing one group at the heart of your blather - African Americans. Just a hunch. Sorry you feel so aggrieved at being lumped in with those Paskistanis and Bangledeshis. Send a note to GWB, I am sure he'll get right on it.

And, as if to punctuate your 'non-sequiter', you refute Relax with yet another BLOG!!!!! Why not go to a fact-certified, historical organization?

And, as the icing on your over-baked cake, I do believe that your www.33brinkster.com link is yet another blog that is largely self-referential. I sincerely hope that you do not submit technical papers for peer review to any serious technical society or similar organization. Your work is shoddy. By the by, is 33brinkster still out and about? I thought they disappeared in late '05.

Assuming that you live in the UK, what animus do you have against black Americans that makes you go to such lengths to defame them? If Blacks are so reprehensible to you,why not return to India where you can merge once again with the "~44% doctors" that make up the male populace of the glorious subcontinent.

Give us a break puh-leeezzze.

GAL.

And with that, I am done dealing with your silly posts that have strayed far from the topic at the root of this thread.

KJ, read the achievemnts made by these Pioneers more closely. Ludwig Rehn and Williams were the first to perform firsts in their crafts. You were right I made an error on Williams, In 1893, Williams performed the first successful closure of a wound of the heart and pericardium. The US Military gave tribute to Garrett A. Morgan for inventing the breathing apparatus. KJ, you would make a great cult leader. Your words are deceiving and create much confusion. Lavina is Indian, Desi. I met her in Singapore roughly 7 years ago. She was there visiting family, at the time she was a undergrad student at the University of Washington. when I left Singapore, I thought that would be the last ill see of her, but was I in for a surprise. My best friend who was in Singapore with me at the time met her sister and married her, like the next month. I thought it was crazy, but in our line of work it (at the time) wasnt to uncommon. The 2 of them moved to Washington and convinced me to move here years later. Im not sure if she is SIKH, or what we really never got that deep in our discussions. Next time she visits ill ask. If my memory serves me right she went to a international school. The questions I have for you is what makes them different from other Indians? Are Indians in Singapore differnt from Indians in Malaysia and Britain? Are Indians in America differnt from Indians in India? Ive met People of African disporia from all over the world. Yes we share the same skin tone and come from the same continent, well our beginnings at least, but we differ culturally. Ive met People of different races from all over the world, but many of them shared different views from other groups in their own race. This is not something you will find on the internet, no stats exist. This is my real life experience. Since you have all the answers please enlighten me. The shiittes and sunnis are both Muslims, so why do they persecute each other? I know its been happenning for thousands of years. Im a firm believer that people are individuals first and a race second.

Better dont answer. Time to move on.

Relax, the Shia Sunni schism is beyond the scope of this conversation, so why pose me that query? Look, you can cite your Lavina anecdotal "research" all you want, she does not reflect the overwhelming majority of SA women the world over who marry within their own religious and cultural communities. This means, not with blacks, whites, or even individuals of the same ethnic back-round but who are of different religious affiliations. This is not a statement made out of jealousy but rather reality. So, why are you so agitated? And to reiterate, Dr. Williams was not the first to operate on the pericardium, Dr. Dalton pioneered the procedure two years before Williams. Also, when did the National Library of Medicine become a white supremacist mouthpiece? It's operated by the United States government and contains the world's largest database of medical literature. I linked a CDC report reflecting HIV figures earlier and was faced with retorts of a grand conspiracy against black people, so I am not surprised that a reputable and unbiased scientific organization such as the NLM would be characterized as unreliable.

Questioner,

You suggest that I repatriate to India if I don't like black people, what merit does that directive hold? The last time I checked blacks don't own Western democracies. You've accused me of being a bigot, but statements like that lead me believe that you are the true racialist. Honestly, this is my last post as it's abundantly clear that facts, trends, and reality mean nothing to you. So, remain steadfast on your views because I am resolute with mine.

I never said that she represented south asians, I never said she represented asians at all, just herself. Her way of thinking is different and unique from the averge person, let me clarify that first. I wasnt trying to prove anypoints, or put anyone on the defensive. I mean you are south Asian, I was just asking you a personal question, your experience with different cultures abroad , or your own. Trying to see if you can answer a question without posting stats which to me is just numbers on papers. When I try to shy this blog away from some of the pointless statements weve made, Your main objetive is to stay the course, keep discrediting black people for what ever reason, but you do it with a vengeance. I scratch my head wondering whats wrong with this guy. If you think people such as DR Ben Carson are fonies then thats your problem. For the sake of argueing DR Ben Carson was not the first man to seperate siamese twins succesfully, Hes not the top nuerosurgeon in the world. KJ pick a Doctor you like and lets settle this arguement. Charles Drew didnt invent Blood Plasma one of your beloved white Doctors did. Your writing style KJ looks real familiar, but we will leave it at that. Better yet there are no black Doctors in the World, so yes Rinku Sen is insane. try sticking to the subject.

I know this blog is dead, but check out this you tube. It can Happen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkjdBuVrBiI&mode=related&search=

Long version of Akira Hip Hop shop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txG_7LdshAo&feature=RecentlyWatched&page=1&t=t&f=b

y is everyones so long

im indian but wanted to know are indian girls being treated bad (racism)
till this day

That should be easy for you to answer

wow.. so instersting! :D
i m hmong....
i like indian movies....

BORED!
I THINK THERE ARE
LOTS OF HOT LOOKING INDIAN.
ONLY some, NOT ALL! :P

Indian women are some of the most beautiful women in the world, if not the beautifulest. excuse the bad grammar, but I think you all get the idea. I saw a couple of Indian movies when I went to India, not bad, not bad at all.

I think it cool if you find love with a asain woman,I did some people people think that asain are ugly because of their eyes are always brown,well I'm black and my eyes are blue and some black people think I look ugly but that's cool I love my asain Boo and little girl she looks more asain then black and I love and I love her sweet brown eyes they look just like her mother one love too us all.

I am an African American male. And I have read most of your posts. Here is my 2 cents. African American males do not prefer white women but African American culture is very liberal so race is not largely considered by the men, it is however largely considered by black women in regards to white men. History plays a HUGE part in deciding what is socially acceptable. Let's 1st understand that whites in America outnumber blks 7/1. When we consider these facts we can better understand the bigger picture. White women are also more liberal, considered by most blk men to be "easy" this paired with a blk male aggressive sexual drive gives the perception that blk men like white women, they don't. Black men look for easy sex. Most blk men would prefer blk women or women who look similar. Blk women have really bad attitudes and aggressive tendancies. This leads blk men away from blk women but recently has led blk men toward East Indian women. East Indian women look similar in appearance and are far more docile. Blk men are salivating now at the prospect of dating East Indian women. They are intelligent, similar in appearance, and very supportive. The myth of blk men liking white women is crazy. Blks endures much at the hands of whites. And dating white women poses many more problems than any of you can understand.

Who are the writers/producers of the show ? Are they not white people ? Someone earlier hit at whose bias is working out here. White males do not like wf/not w-male pairrings (view outrage over Ian Johnson's "recent" public proposal to a white woman). And, asians are sensitize to the af/wm pairing (which what is really happening in real life - Asian --especially Asian Indians-- don't marry blacks too much). So, if you are a liberal producer and you want to show an i/r relationship, you pick what will cause the least controversy. White males do not care about af/bm relationships and apparently (for now) asians are not threatened by what they know doesn't happen much in reality.

anyone heard of Tina Kim, She has got to be the only funny Asian comedian in the World. Stereotypical, but funny, check this out about Asian and black relationships

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuXr56o7Xsc&mode=related&search=

Does anyone watch CURRENT TV, its the best channel out there. Check out these links

New parents Andrea and Jerry explore their own racial identities as they are forced to pinpoint that of their newborn son. Having endured their own share of discrimination growing up, they hope their newborn son can grow up identifying as something other than "other

http://current.com/items/76303482_something_other_than_other

"Secret Asian 007" is a video about a Korean-American filmmaker who is living a secret life from her traditional Korean family. She describes what it is like to break a major cultural taboo by dating an African American and the struggle to hide her relationship for three years.

http://current.com/items/76346702_secret_asian_007