Decades ago, East Asians (formerly known as Orientals) were stereotyped as smart. Before it was politicaly incorrect, the "smart stereotype" was cemented in the minds of Americans as belonging to genetics.

In addition, east asian men had to be labelled as morally inferior and villainous in order to justify the colonization of China, internment of Japanese during WW2, the Chinese Exclusion Act, and the war in Vietnam. Also war in Japan and Korea also has caused problems for East Asian men.

Men often choose women based upon physical traits -- and this may be resultant upon evolutionarily choosing a female mate based upon childbearing suitability (hence the preference for youthful looks), good genetics (beauty) and good health (good skin & hair).

Thus east asian women have been regarded as having good genetic stock. Darker skinned people have been unfairly stereotyped as having less worthy genes.

Recently due to the prominence of the tech boom, South Asian/Indians have proved themselves to whites as being equals in intelligence -- due to their success in technology, medicine, etc...

Thus South Asian women are also now coming onto American men's radar, as being likely to produce smart babies.

On TV, the matching of an asian woman with an "American" man may be more palatable to core demographic audiences than having depicting a positive/romantic asian man - "white" woman couple.

In addition, in order to appeal or appease an african american audience, it would be more "palatible" to "give" an asian woman to a black man rather than show a long term depiction of a black man and a white woman -- even though for representative depiction among interracial couples, BM/WF vastly outnumbers BM/AF.

Actually, knowing a number of Asian American men with African American women, I'm somewhat disappointed that our interest in the media always seems to focus on Asian American women with African American men.

Well, come to think of it, I really can't think of an example right now, and I suspect those few instances where it's depicted it's probably just played up for laughs, rather than exploring what such couples really go through.

I'm going to keep this short because if I start writing at length about the matter I'll wind up feeling disgusted by all media. Again.

Well Anon and Bryan, you guys seem to have overlooked the fact that while BM\WF outnumber BM\AF or AM\BF pairings as a percentage of the total number of 'couples' for BM\other or AM\other couples, the AF\WM pair-off is HUGH as a percentage of the total number of AF\others (over 98% of Asian women who marry non-Asians marry white men) and form a pretty significant block of the total number of 'coupled' Asian women (~30%). The thing that strikes me as odd is that the TV couple world would make you think that the AF/WM pairing was an oddity when in actuality it is the overwhelming majority of AF\other pairings. Art is NOT imitating life and life is NOT being represented in art. Why?

In America Maybe, but im Black and Have an Asian wife. Like the Black guy in the picture, I to am in the Military as well. From a Military point of view those of us who are stationed overseas such as Japan, Hawaii, and Korea would find this common. BM/AF couples. More BM/AF couples than whites. I understand in America its may be a different story. Pop Stars Amerie, Krystal Kaye, Kimora Lee Simmons, Denise Lawton, Mia J. along with Athletes Tiger Woods, Hines Ward, Chad and Johnnie Martin, Will Demps just to name a few is evidence that there are relationships among Asians/Black. I also know its certain Asians as well. Ive met Asian girls that said they could never date White guys and Vice Versa. I dont think the media is really focusing on BM/AF couples. Im sorry if you feel that way, but I disagree. If its white guys you want to see Asians with, or other Asians then feel relax, because thats really were all the attention is focused. Im sorry that when ever Black people are put in the spotlight it brings concerns from other people, but I think you are thinking to much.

Rinku Sen here, glad to see that others are also talking and thinking about this particular media representation. Check out my latest blog post on it at Racewire, the ColorLines blog (http:racewire.org), based on a speaking gig I did at the Public Square in Chicago last week. Got an interesting historical perspective there.

Please note that I'm not the one saying that Americans no longer notice. That is all from the mainstream media.

I should probably clarify this, that I'm interested more in the matter of who and what Hollywood chooses to present.

A questioner, I'm not overlooking 'the statistics', but I'm more interested in the fact that if we do decide to show healthy relationships between inter-racial couples that the experiences of my friends remain largely shoved into the margins, and that as a nation, and as a world, we lose something when those stories, those perspectives aren't heard, aren't seen, whether as ficitonal or non-fictional accounts.

Lets just clear this up with reality and remove the pc-speak to look at this candidly.

There are vastly more BM/WF couples in reality, and this pairing has endured the MOST extreme ostracism through history.

Black men have the highest preference for interracial marriage, followed perhaps by white men, and then by asian men.

Since a black male audience would like to see black men paired with women of other races on TV and media, the mainstream media would LEAST want to picture and portray black males with white women.

The reason for this is that the main TV demographic that the mainstream media caters to are socially conservative whites, also many whites in general don't want to see BM/WF relations touted on TV.

And in addition, interracial pairings of men with asian women cause the LEAST CONTROVERSY in the mainstream media and mainstream society.

Remember this controversy:
(http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,15376,00.html)
During a 2004 Superbowl commercial, blonde Nicollette Sheridan is half naked with Terrel Owens. -- And this caused a huge uproar. Would it have been so controversial if Terrel Owens was paired with a half naked black, hispanic, indian, or asian woman?

Not likely.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

"Although mixed-race partnering has increased, the United States still shows huge disparities between African American male and African American female endogamy statistics. The 1990 census reports that 17.6% of African American marriages occur with White Americans. Yet African American men are 2.5 times more likely to be married to white women than African American women to white men. In the 2000 census, 239,477 African American male to white female and 95,831 white male to African American female marriages were recorded, again showing the 2.5-1 ratio. Despite this, slightly more white men are married than white women. There is also a disparity between Asian American women and Asian American men largely due to the +51% greater absolute numbers of Asian American women in the US as opposed to men, according to the 2000 census.

A Black-Asian couple's engagement photo.Asian American women were +250% more likely to be married to a White American man than Asian American men married to a white woman; but, the absolute numbers of Asian American women are only +51% more than men among the six largest Asian ethnic groups.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, Asian American women of the 1.5 generation were +76% more likely to be married to a white man than Asian American men of the 1.5 generation married to a white woman, but the absolute numbers of 1.5 generation Asian American women is +56% more than Asian American men.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, the number of Asian Americans married to non-Asians is +246% more for Asian American females as opposed to males among the six largest Asian American ethnic groups.[4] According to the 2000 US Census, the number of 1.5 generation Asian Americans married to non-Asians among the six largest Asian ethnic groups is +56% more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men, but the absolute numbers of 1.5 generation Asian American women is +56% percent more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men.[4]

With African Americans and Asian Americans, the ratios are even further imbalanced, with +598% percent more Asian female/Black male couples than Asian male/Black female couples according to the 2000 US Census for the six largest Asian American ethnic groups, but the absolute numbers of Asian American women are +51% percent more for Asian American women as opposed to Asian American men among the six largest Asian ethnic groups.[4] Asian Americans of the 1.5 generation and of the five largest Asian American ethnic groups had Black male/Asian female marriages +222% more than Asian male/Black Female relationships.[4] Even though the disparity between Blacks and Asian interracial marriages by gender is high according to the 2000 US Census, the total numbers of Asian/Black interracial marriages are low, numbering only 2.2% percent for Asian male marriages and 10.2% percent of Asian female marriages.[4]

The interracial disparity for American Indians is low. According to the 1990 US Census (which only counts indigenous people with US-government-recognized tribal affiliation), American Indian women interrmarried White Americans +2% percent more than American Indian men married White women.[5]"

not having sorted thru all of Anon's numbers yet, let me say this:

first - it is impractical (if not intellectually dishonest) to compare absolute numbers. the differences in population counts (african americans to asian americans to white americans) makes such comparison useless. 100,000 white americans is a small percentage of their absolute population (~70%) compared to asians (~7%) so when you compare NUMBERS you quickly get screwy results.

second - i think i clearly stated that the PERCENTAGE of asian men and african american women who 'out marry' are much lower than the number of asian women or african american men who 'out marry' ...and i mean percentage of their respective groups.

third - while not trying to render the 'off shore military base' experience irrelevant, i think it is obvious that in asian countries OF the asian women that are NOT married to asian men, they will be married to a male sample that more reflects the demographics of the availble non-asian male pool - or the male soldiers. given that and the fact that african americans are disproportionately represented in the military compared to their percentage of the total population (in the USA), there will be a much larger percentage of AA men married to asian women. You have a 'skewed' sample in a unnaturally controlled environment. no good.

third - i am not upset that blacks and asians are shown together on TV; i don't know how you got that from what i wrote (but it might be interesting to discuss why you 'assumed' that). i think it is good if it helps to dispel what i think (and seemed to be validated by Sen's anecdotes in the article) an undue tension or hostility between the groups (asian- and african- americans).

My question was WHY do you think that popular media is portraying these couples (black\asian) given that the reality of the situation is that there are many, many, many times more white/asian couples?

Given the media crafted picture, you cannot help but ask yourself "Why do they not want to show asian/asian relationships? or black/black relationships?" and "why do they not seem to show what is the overwhelming majority of asian/other relationships - asian women/white men - a paring which unto itself has generated pages and pages of blog write on yellow/rice fever and fetishism?"

If blacks do marry outside their race It more than likely would be someone of hispanic origin. How accurate are consensus taken.

BM/BF is often shown in commercials and movies.

WM/AF is also often shown: Joy Luck Club, Red Doors, ad infinitum --- far, far more often than AM/AF -- especially attractive AM/AF couples in a romantic, positive context.

BM/WF is not often shown on TV or movies.

To state the obvious, non-white male/WF is still, on average, fairly rare.

Again, AM/AF or AM/female-anyrace -- in a POSTIVE context, is the most rare.

In fact, on TV, check out the latest Battlestar Galactica series. The main Asian Female character is an enemy cylon traitor who has 2 white boyfriends.

If we get out of the mainstream media bubble, the reality is that AM/AF couples far, far outnumber WM/AF couples.

By not showing AM/AF relations in a non-villainous way -- in any representive number similar to WM/AF, it is jarringly obvious that there is a real pattern of racism towards asian men in the media. The White media regards asian men as hated sexual competitive threats for white and asian women -- probably because asian men are seen as viable providers with good jobs, or maybe asian men are resented as economic competition.

Anon,

you seem to miss the point. first, let's stick to TV and media that is not derived from books. Joy Luck Club is derived form Amy Tan's book - and it should not escape you that she, an asian woman, in control of the story, has romantic relationships between AF and WM. damn! there we go again!

you are correct, AM/AF couples outnumber any other AM or AF pairing. this is true for all groups - asian, blacks, whites, latinos. it makes sense doesn't it?

and as for commercials - these don't create any 'characters' of note or depth so the 'audience' doesn't feel as though they 'know' any commercial characters. in fact, commercials TRY to look as 'real life' as possible, so that people get the "that could be me" feeling and identify with the product. to whit, there are Am\AF couples on commercials and rarely mixed race couples.

IF 'media' was so concerned about asian men as sexual competition for white men, why wouldn't they show WM/AF couples to reinforce their dominance?

why show a series of relationships that are not representative of the actual society (American)?

Anon, you've touted the number of BM\WF relationships in society, yet TV media rarely shows that without the relationship being at or near the 'heart' of the story. what's up with that?

I, like Sen, don't buy the 'we didn't even notice' line. too much coincidence.

so let's get all 'conspiracy theorist' here: why not show AM/AF couples? because if you showed stable, working AND sexy AM, white women might say "hey, he's not so bad..." (hence Daniel Kim - sexy guy of Lost) Why make all the BM/AF couples? ...which so far have ended up poorly... To throw AM 'off the trail' of the real 'hunter' (WM) and reinforce the notion of 'go with a black guy and you're headed for trouble'? (except Burke on Grey's Anatomy, but we will see how that turns out) To make AM's 'rebel' against those 'crazed, sex mad black guys' in the real world?

and as if to reinforce this Superman's Bizarro World of Love, there is yet another new show which has... ta da!!! a black male married to an asian woman! another coincidence?

lastly Anon, your comment about whom blacks 'should marry' if they marry outside their race hints at a less than subtle bias that begins to define the vein from which your other opinions draw blood.

What? You don't make any sense.

And your hostility is repulsive.

Bryan,

i agree with you. why not show the full range of things, not just a sensationalized or one-dimensional view...or worse yet, a view which largely does not exist.

Someone wrote in one post that Black Men prefer to see themselves with women of different races. Thats not exactly true. If you watch movies with All Black writers, and Producers the leading Lady will be Black. "Mississippi Massala" was a movie with a Black Man/Asian Women lead. The Writer, Produder and Directer of that Movie was a Indian Women. The Producers of shows like ER are white, or Jewish. I know LOST
has a Half Black/ Half Asian writer. No one looks at the source. 97 percent of Blacks marry Blacks. The movie "Face" the story of a Chinese girl falling in love with a Black Guy was written, produced and directed by a Chinese woman. BLack Americans are not writing these scripts, or promoting them. Its either Asian, or whites writing these scripts. The relevence I see with this couple here in ER is that the lady is British Indian and He is in the Military, A relationship with an Asian not from America. My wife is Asian, but not Asian American . Some what like the relationship with me and my wife. That was the relevance I was making A Questioner. So I guess the question is why pair women of different colors with black men? I think the reason is because these people know other people will watch and boost ratings.

Notwithstanding BM/AF coupling on "ER" and "Grey's", WM/AF coupling is far more common on TV, film and advertisements.

Likewise, BM/WF coupling is far more common than BF/WM, esp. on television.

Otoh, of all the race/genders - only AMs are rarely partnered with anyone.

The reason why there has been BM/AF coupling (even though it is very rare in the US - according to the Census data) on television is due to the default casting of minorities - BMs to represent blacks and AFs to represent Asians.

where did you get this from?

third - while not trying to render the 'off shore military base' experience irrelevant, i think it is obvious that in asian countries OF the asian women that are NOT married to asian men, they will be married to a male sample that more reflects the demographics of the availble non-asian male pool - or the male soldiers. given that and the fact that african americans are disproportionately represented in the military compared to their percentage of the total population (in the USA), there will be a much larger percentage of AA men married to asian women. You have a 'skewed' sample in a unnaturally controlled environment. no good.

A Questioner:

This comment is not accurate. Obviously you never been over here to see why some of these Asian girls make some of the choices they make. From my experience there are a lot of Asian girls overseas that do not date White Guys/ or Black. With Hip Hop culture hitting the forefront through out the world. Girls in a lot of these Asian countries have developed a fetish for Black Dudes. There are just as many whites/ Hispanics in the Miltary as blacks. The point im making is its a matter of choice. Not because Black make up the so called largest portion of the U. S. Military. I do agree with you on one thing. Yes AA /AF make up 95 percent of the Marriages. True, My sister-in-law was pissed when me and my wife started dating. She is Japanese to the core. She hates the Western World and despises the U. S. Military. When my wife was pregnant with our first child it upsetted her, but after my son was born you couldnt keep her away from our house. There are a lot of Asian Women that feel that way. I just want to say to the person that said the mainstream media is trying to appease the black audience is ignorant. Remember blacks do not have faith in the mainstream media. We have our own media BET, UPN, Comedy Central in a sense(joke) Our own TV Shows, and music that for some reason keeps going mainstream. Shows like "ER" is not a show that blacks even watch first of all, Well maybe some. I think you have to look elsewhere for answers(directed at anyone). Call NBC and CBS, ask them why they keep doing this. I dont have a clue. Some people in this room are blaming the Black Community for this. Im not pointing any fingers at anyone, but research the project (writers, producers, Directors) before you make some of these statements.

Hello dontnukeit and others,

I'd like to try and make my remarks clearer, so they are not miscontrued or misinterpreted. And in alot of ways, my response is not necessarily a "disagreement post."

To clarify my point is this:
Why is the media showing BM in interracial relationships, but disproportionately under-representing BM/WF couples?

If these stats are correct: "The 1990 census reports that 17.6% of African American marriages occur with White Americans. Yet African American men are 2.5 times more likely to be married to white women than African American women to white men."

In the bigger picture of America, BM/WF couples should be represented more on TV than BM/AF couples -- but that won't happen for obvious reasons.

(I'd like to stress that there is nothing wrong with interracial relationships as long as racism is not involved.)

The likely answer is that:

* -- the corporations and mainstream media want to avoid controversy,

* -- want to appease their main demographic audiences,

* -- and the media depictions also reflect the minds & fantasies of the producers, writers, and directors.

In addition, interracial relationships involving AF's are the least controversial on TV because they are depicted the most often. Are some people upset that ER doesn't show AF/WM and then extrapolates that to the rest of TV? That's nonsense. TV and movies have often shown AF/WM couples. Battlestar Galactica is one big example currently showing, and there are others.

What is so wrong with casting BM/AF relationships? Nothing. But just like with the white reaction to affirmative action, the idea of the writers may have been to kill 2 birds with one stone. Show "diversity" credentials and deflect criticisms of racism by showing a black man in an interracial relationship, but NOT with a white woman (or white-jewish -- if as indicated, that really reflects the ethnicities of the male writers).

The point is that if you look at the pattern of depiction, you can tell that the mainstream media has a real problem in depicting postive/romantic/attractive AM/AF, AM/non-asian, and WF/non-white couples. From the pattern, one can determine from the evidence, the racism in the mainstream media.

The pattern of evidence shows a racist bias against postive/attractive depictions of AM heterosexuality, and of WF "miscegenation."

First, I think you have to separate TV from movies. Movies tend to be much more adventurous in terms of topics, casting, 'controversy', etc. Their audience more actively 'chooses' to attend, so there is less 'backlash'.

That said, of all of these recent posts, i think 'bean' may have hit the nail on the head! There is obviously a lack of asian men being cast in major TV productions so there are few asian men to draw upon; there are also few (but still more than asian men!) black women cast as primary or lead characters in major TV productions - except when the premise of the show is that they ARE black women. So IF people of colour are to have romantic interests on these programs, they inevitably HAVE to be paired and all that is left is AF/BM!

I think that Battlestar Gallactica is somewhat outside the loop. It has a somewhat 'fringe' audience (not a major network) and it is set in some fantastical 'future' where all types of 'unbeleivable stuff' happens. The same is true of Star Trek and similar programs.

As for the military thing - i NEVER said that blacks made up the MAJORITY of the military population - that would be damn close to impossible as blacks only make up 14 - 15% of the US population (not that TV would make you think that!). I said that they are DISPROPORTIONATELY represented - which you 'confirmed' if you say that "there are as many hispanics and whites in the military as blacks". Blacks and Hispanics would have to be overrepresented in the military if they had equal percentages to whites. If that is correct and assuming a 30%/30%/30% split (assume the other 10% to be Native American and Asian American), Blacks and Latinos would show up at twice their percentage in the military as they do in the general population since hispanics are only 14 - 15% of the US population as well. Thus two populations that make up only 28 - 30% of the US population are ~60% of the military.

[I often find it annoying when news coverage of 'our troops' on some 'in-depth' program manages to show few minorities as 'patriotic boys defending our liberties' when IF they selected in accordance with actual demographics they would have shown probably 30% minorities or more, but that is another thread.]

As for Japan or otehr-than-US statistics, the fact that some Asian girls have a 'black fetish' or whatever is irrelevant. Why they marry black men is immaterial, the point is that they do and they do so in much higher percentages OUTSIDE the US (especially at or near military bases). Personally, I think that is fine. They can marry whomever makes them happy.

Now Anon's 9/23 post hit some interesting points too. Is there merit in the theory that pairing AFs with non-Asians will create less controversy than pairing any other F 'outside her race'? If true, why? Are AM impotent to complain? Are AFs not likely to complain (since in the US they already do 'out marry' at a rate behind only to Jews and white Hispanics). I also like the thought that to show "miscegenation" amongst white women appears to be largely taboo on TV - unless a bad outcome is also depicted, thus warning against such actions. AND the big question of "WHY NO ASIAN MEN???" still remains.

So, TV still shows interracial relationships in ways that are NOT reflective of real life and does not often show either in a positive light (BM/BF) or in any light (AM/AF).

For the record, the lead writer or 'creator' of Gray's Anatomy is a black woman. And she has taken some major steps to expand and 'humanize' the character of Dr. Bailey, the loud, tough black doctor who bosses tne interns. That is a good thing.

"AND the big question of "WHY NO ASIAN MEN???" still remains."

In Beerfest, a south asian man hooks up with a black woman. So there's your asian man/black woman representation.

The writer, or producer on Greys Anatomy is Half-Asian. Look at her picture. If im wrong then I stand corrected. Someone said 18 percent of Blacks were married to whites. I otherhand looked at a consensus that said otherwise. Its no were near 18 percent. Thats why I do not put so much faith in consensus. They are not always so accurate. The question is WHERE ARE THE ASIAN MEN. Well i guess we need more Asian men in Hollywood at the helm. Maybe its time for an AET. A 24 HOUR Asian channel. Hollywood will never change.

oops, wrong again, IM thinking of "LOST"

i think I clearly said that MOVIES (i.e. Beerfest) are an exception because they (movies) tend to be more controversial and 'edgy' in as much as the audience pays to attend and in so doing 'accepts' the 'risks' inherent thereto. Also, a single movie or bit character does not negate the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If there is an asian man shagging a black woman in "Beerfest" GREAT!!! There is a pretty strong vein of anti-black sentiment in the south asian community in the US. Maybe that will help erase that in some small way. [As an aside, you've got to think about where you spend your entertainment $$] I think it was last season on Gray's Anatomy that a south asian guy banged Meredith (Gray) for an episode. Does that negate the fact that there is a paucity of asian men on prime time TV? I don't think so.

I don't think there is any 'consensus' data on marriage rates. People are or are not married to someone. There is no 'consensus' aspect to it - much like there is no 'consensus' needed to 'pass' the law of gravity. Opinions are irrelevant. I am betting the word was 'Census' data. The 18% sounds high, but is possible if you count blacks married to hispanics - of which there are 'white' and 'non-white' categories.

Still standing after all this jibber jabber are the facts that PRIME TIME TV seems to want to 'represent' a BM/AF couple rate that is NOT present (not even close!) in society and that asian men are largely invisible. Why??

The assertion that films take more "risks" in casting (particularly of IR relationships) than TV shows is false.

The reason why the film "Hitch" didn't have a BF lead/love interest was that the producers were afraid of the film being seen as a "black" film.

The reason why "Hitch" didn't have a WF lead/love interest was b/c the producers were afraid that a portion of the WM audience would be turned off.

A HF (albeit basically a non-Nordic WF), ended up as the compromise choice in casting opposite Will Smith.

With budgets in the tens of millions - big studio pics tend to be really conservative.

Otoh, TV shows, esp, ones with large casts, can take risks with casting of love interests.

BM/WF couplings have been quite common on television (much more so than WM/BF) - "24"; "Sex in the City"; "ER"; "Grey's Anatomy"; "My Name is Earl"; Desperate Housewives;
"The Practice"; "Ally McBeal"; "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"; "Angel"; "One Tree Hill"; "LAX"; etc.

With AFs - the WM/AF coupling is most common on television: "Gilmore Girls"; "Ally McBeal"; Beverly Hills 90201"; "Coupling"; "Malcom in the Middle"; "Battlestar Gallactica": "Deep Space Nine"; "Enterprise"; "King of the Hill"; "The Single Guy"; "Flight 29 Down"; "Malibu Dreams"; etc. and virtually almost every single crime show and many of the most popular sitcoms/comedies("Friends"; "Seinfeld"; Sex in the City) have shown WM/AF couples.

There has yet to be an Asian-American couple on television (the Asian couple on "Lost" aren't American).

DEAN:

You hit it on the spot. You get 2 TV shows with a Black and Asian love interest the ratings go up, and the world goes crazy(men). Why dont Asian men complain about the Shows with all the AF/WM interest. You have to admit, Black Males have a Gigantic influence on trends, and Pop Culture in America. That relates to Prime Time. Consensus, Census, its all a bogus survey to me.
"Hitch" was written by white producers. "Drumline", "Love and Basketball was wriiten by blacks for blacks, but crossovered like "Joy Luck Club", which was written and produced by an Asian women. So why theres not more Amy Tans in the industry. Theres answer to why there are no leading Asian men on Prime Time. More than likely there is a lack of Asian writers, Directors and Producers in Hollywood to write these scripts. Once that Happens then you will see a change. If you are waiting for mainstream America to do it then you are saddenly mistaken. African American Producers had to respond to all the negative roles Blacks were getting in the past. The spike Lees of the world soon emerged. This is just my opinion from Minority to Minority

DEAN:

You hit it on the spot. You get 2 TV shows with a Black and Asian love interest the ratings go up, and the world goes crazy(men). Why dont Asian men complain about the Shows with all the AF/WM interest. You have to admit, Black Males have a Gigantic influence on trends, and Pop Culture in America. That relates to Prime Time. Consensus, Census, its all a bogus survey to me.
"Hitch" was written by white producers. "Drumline", "Love and Basketball was wriiten by blacks for blacks, but crossovered like "Joy Luck Club", which was written and produced by an Asian women. So why theres not more Amy Tans in the industry. Theres answer to why there are no leading Asian men on Prime Time. More than likely there is a lack of Asian writers, Directors and Producers in Hollywood to write these scripts. Once that Happens then you will see a change. If you are waiting for mainstream America to do it then you are saddenly mistaken. African American Producers had to respond to all the negative roles Blacks were getting in the past. The spike Lees of the world soon emerged. This is just my opinion from Minority to Minority

so who is upset at the depiction of BM/AF couples?

shoiwng numerous BM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

showing WM/AF couples is logical given the reality of American society.

NOT showing AM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

Why is TV being 'illogical' given the reality of American society.

We have a suggested answer for the lack of AM roles - no writers\directors\producers to champion the casting of AMs in lead roles. What about the other (BM/AF)? Do yo think blacks in TV-land (of which there are not that many in the behind the scenes decision manking position) are banging the drum to show BM/AF couples? or do you think TV-land is staying away from the potential backlash (from WM and BF) of showing BM/WF couples?

Hollywood writers, producers and studio execs (of which a vast majority are white) of television shows - in the last 2 decades don't seem to have a problem with casting BMs in major roles (pretty much every single drama - "CSI"; "CSI Miami"; "24"; Law & Order"; "Law & Order SVU"; "Lost";
"West Wing"; "Cold Case"; "NYPD Blue";
"ER"; "JAG"; "Alias"; "Smallville"; Angel"; "What I Like About You"; etc. or even depicting BM/WF couples.

BFs, in comparison to BMs, are underrepresented on television (but that's the way it is in a male-dominated Hollywood EXCEPT for when it comes to Asian-Americans - where Asian-Am female roles outnumber that for Asian-AM males).

(Btw, "Joy Luck Club" wasn't exactly a film which portrayed Asian males positively nor is Amy Tan known for depicting Asian males other than in a negative light. Nevertheless, it was the studio which had the cold, heratless "skinflint" husband changed from that of a WM, as it was in the novel, to an Asian-Am male.)

Regarding BM/AF depictions on TV and in films - there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, it is disturbing when they are more frequent than that of Asian-Am couples (of which there has yet to be one), especially when you look at the demographics.

According to the US Census - only 1.2% of married Asian-Am females are married to BMs, and yet this is a more common pairing than that of AAM/AAF.

(On "Lost" - the producers/writers were originally going to have Sun leave Jin for Michael).

In the last 2 decades, the number and types of portrayals of BMs, HMs (basically white Hispanic) and even gay males has advanced in Hollywood.

The one group that seems to get left behind is that of Asian-Am males.

so what do asian and asian american women say about all of this?

are asian american men especially annoyed that black men are getting the 'play' on TV now?

Oh, on the BM/WF relationships, I think most of those relationships cited (McBeal, ER, etc) ended up failing and didn't last. too often it seemed that the racial difference was key to the existence of the relationship on the show. the longest running, (relatively) well-functioning B/W relationship I remember on TV was the neighbors to George and Weezy Jefferson; it was WM\BF...but he was British and what do those damn foreigners know about good relationships!

nicely enough on Grey's Anatomy, the Burke\Yang relationship is more driven by neat vs. messy, although this season we will get the parents of Burke 'surprising' our couple. i have been disturbed by the recent spate of 'let's show black people as bigoted too' movies and shows (like that Bernie Mack movie last year and the 'something different' movie). this has not been the case in my experience. you may not get kissed and slobbered over on your first encounter, but no one will burn a cross on your lawn either.

Funny you mention Lost, I was 'smelling' that Sun/Michael thing brewing mid-season, but i bet they were worried about getting rolled by Asian men if they gave up yet another women to a black guy. That would have clearly looked like some sort of 'collusion' or something.

It's not that BMs are getting 'play' now - but that BM/AAF coupling is more frequent than AAM/AAF, even though it is actually a rarity (BM/AAF coupling, in addition to AAM/AAF coupling and AAM/BF coupling would be preferable).

(Btw, BMs have always gotten "play" with BFs on television. AAMs have yet to even reach that stage.)

I see you have done your research. There are, or were shows like Jaime Fox, Girlfriends, Moesha and the list goes on of Black oriented sitcoms. Theres an array of Black Producers, Writers and Directors. The point Im making is where are the Asian writers in Hollywood?

How is it illogical. I can see if there were not any marriages between BM/AM then your point would could be argueable, You point cant be made with the evidence submitted by Dean. Most Prime time shows do depict Asian Females with white men. More than AM/AF couples. I dont hear you saying that is illogical. Why is it always the show with the BM as the lead man getting all the attention and high ratings. Look at Grace Park on Battle Star Gallactica. Im waiting for that blog. I personaly know a Black DR. married to an Asian Women. Allen Keyes the Black republican wife is also Indian. So how is it illogical? Its just two sitcoms. 1.2 percent AF married to BM, 2 primtimes sitcoms. I feel that logical.

so what do asian and asian american women say about all of this?

You are going to get mixed reviews, I hear it all the time. some will be for it, some will be against it. I beginning to think Rinku Sen dates black guys.

And I really don't buy the quote from the producer of ER, who says of the two Asian woman-black man couples he's had on his show, "Honestly, we really don't even talk about it or consider that it's an interracial couple."

TV is so white, how can you not notice?

Maybe he classifies both partners as "colored" in his mind, and doesn't explore beyond that?

Dontnuke, here is what i posted:

"showing numerous BM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society.

showing WM/AF couples is logical given the reality of American society.

NOT showing AM/AF couples is illogical given the reality of American society."

So i think i have acknowledged and agree that the lack of AM\AF couples is a glaring error (i.e. "illogical"). As an aside, I think you will have a long wait before you see ANY BM/AM "couples" on TV, but I digress.

Please name the current MAJOR NETWORK programs which have a continuing AF\WM couple that is more than just 'background decoration' for the show? I am not as rabid a TV watcher as many here seem to be, so I just don't know.

I think to try to equate the number of TV shows (and I don't believe I've ever narrowed it down to 'sitcoms') to the percentage of 'couples' of a given type in the US population is valid. To make such a comparison you would need to compare the percentage of regularly occuring 'character couples' (i.e. AF/WM) with the percentage of real world couples.

Here is the gist of my observation (stay with me here!):

1 - there is a MAJOR UNDER-REPRESENTATAION of AM/AF couples on MAJOR TV when compared to real life. WHY?

2 - there is an OVER-REPRESENTATION of BM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today compared to real life. WHY?

3 - there is an UNDER-REPRESENTATION of WM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today WHEN COMPARED to the actual percentages in real life.

You are correct that there are a number of black-themed shows on TV, but you seem to group together programs which are currently being broadcast with those that have been cancelled. This is misleading - it 'over counts' the level oof representation of the group. You will also note that I do not believe that ANY of the 'black themed' shows you listed include a BM/AF couple (as recurring characters) or BF/AM for that matter. So WHY on shows largely headed by WHITES (not ALL but MOST) are there so many BM/AF couples? You would think that IF these shows are 'controlled' by White Men AND that white men wanted to show their control and dominence over Asian Men, that the shows would have WM/AF couples wouldn't you??

But they don't; so I suspect that something else is afoot here. What could it be?????

Oh, Dean, it is OBVIOUS that BM would take the dominant role as the mate for BF on TV shows. MOST of the couples that we see on TV are 'race matched' - EXCEPT where Asian men are concerned.

And let no one be misled, blacks do not even begin to have a MAJOR role in the writing, directing, casting or producing of TV shows EVEN those that star Black people. Its like pro sports - you can play but you can't own.

Anon, do you have a problem with Sen's dating choices?

"Oh, Dean, it is OBVIOUS that BM would take the dominant role as the mate for BF on TV shows. MOST of the couples that we see on TV are 'race matched' - EXCEPT where Asian men are concerned."

That's my whole point (imagine what the reaction would be from the African-American community if all the BF characters were paired with WM (or other non-BMs) or all the WFs were paired with BMs (or other non-WMs).

Aside from "ER" and "Grey's Anatomy" which depict AF/BM - the most common pairing on TV (and in movies) have been AF/WM.

Many of the producers on “black” shows are white (i.e. – “Girlfriends”). Nevertheless, BMs are represented in many “general audience” shows on television and on Madison Ave. (which is very white).

YES, the lack of AM/AF couples on TV is not right, nor is the lack of AM roles in general, but BM/AF couples are not the cause of that and Black writers, producers, directors are not the cause of this. Has the asian community complained about the lack of AM/AF couples on TV? If there were an explosion of BF/WM couples, there might indeed by some outcry from the black community. I think there would be some noise if it was BM/WF too. Where is the asian community's voice regarding AF/non-Asian male couples? One thing that would have to be discussed in the AF/WM isseu is that there IS a significant REAL WORLD couple rate of that mix. Why is that? For AFs to complain would ring a bit hollow.

The most common pairing on TV is not AF/WM. the most common is WM/WF. Other than the current Battlestar Gallactica (which I personally don't consider 'major media') what are the current programs with a recurring AF/WM couple that is central to the plot? the almost 'comic concubine' fiasco on Desperate Housewives is something I don't even begin to get. a menage a trois??

Think about the underlying message to BW as a result of the BM/AF mushroom - that BW are not desireable to even BM. The same message would appear to be on the agenda for AM.

So what do you think is the motivation for showing something that is 'not' - BM/AF couples and NOT showing something that 'is' - WM/AF, BM\WF and AM/AF couples?

I don't think anyone here is decrying the fact that there are BM/AF portrayals - but rather that the Hollywood system continues to avoid the portrayal of AMs as love interests (with females of any race/ethnicity), including African-Am producers (such as Shonda Rhimes of "Grey's Anatomy").

Gay AM characters, btw, were fairly common on "black" sitcoms like "Half and Half" and "Girlfriends."

There is an outcry about the lack/negative portrayals of Asian-Am males (as well as females) on television, and in particular, with regard to the portrayal of AF/WM in lieu of any AF/AM portrayals.

The most common pairing (with regard to Asian-Am characters) is AF/WM.

As I have stated AF/WM couplings have appeared in shows like "Beverly Hills 90201"; "Gilmore Girls"; "Malcolm in the Middle"; "The Single Guy"; "Pepper Dennis"; "Coupling"; "Ally McBeal";
"Deep Space Nine";
"Enterprise"; "Relic Hunter"; etc...

to any number of dramas/sitcoms which include guest roles with AFs (in dramas - the theme usually is that of the AF wanting to escape from oppressive AMs and be saved by a "white knight"...

to teen shows like "Flight 29 Down", "Suite Life of Zach and Cody" and "Malibu Dreams."

There is no danger of BFs beginning to think that they are not desireable to BMs (there are countless TV show, films, videos, etc. which portray BM/BF couples).

The reason why there have been a few portrayals of AF/BM couplings is that the "de facto" casting of minorities for the sake of diversity is AF and BM (at the cost of AMs and BFs) - which often leads to their coupling since Hollywood thinks it's being progressive by showing such couplings.

Hollywood is filled with closet racists.

Well if its the White men trying to use black men to dominate The Asian Mans image im lost. Why are female Asian Film makers producing such Movies as "Face" and "Mississippi Masala"? Not White, not Black, but Asian females. Why do media moguls such as Oliver Wang "O" DUB, and Jeff Chang, 2 very well known writers promotes Black culture to Asians? Did you ever think why Rinku Sen did an article on this topic? The world is changing Black people set the trends in America. We always have. Thats why theres success with Black Americans in Hollywood. Hollywood cares for one thing and one thing only, Ratings. Ive never watch a show of ER, or Greys Anatomy like 98 percent of all other Black Americans. Obviously, a lot of Asian tune in. Questioner, BM/AF are not overrepresented, stop hating. That couldnt be further from the truth. 2 shows, 2 louzy shows and everyone thinks Hollywood has gone BM/AF crazy. There are BM/AF marriages. Yes Qustionar, there are. Im living proof of that and countless others. Yes there are more WM/AM couplings but 1.2 Percent of 45 million gives you what. well you do the Math. Thats not counting overseas were its crazy rediculous. Even my white friends make jokes about us and Asian females over here because its thick. The point im making is BM/AF are not overrepresented. Its just 2 shows. Whites are really overrepresented. All the sitcoms, all the movies. I mean lucy liu never dated an Asian guy in any of her movies, All white, So whats the Problem. So look around and you will see. Im sorry that the 2 shows you like happen to have BM/AF relationships. Why dont you give such shows as BattleStar Galactica, Gilmore Girls and Malcom in the Middle a chance. Then you will see how wrong your rhetoric is. Yes Dean you are right. There are some Black oriented shows that have white producers, but still there are some that do not. The Bernie Mac show, Bernie Mac writes a lot of the material for his sitcom. Only Asians can remedy any kind of Stereotypes of Asians in Hollywood. Once an influx of Asian Directors, Writers and Producers set up shop and distribute their brand of entertainment in Hollywood, you will see the end of a lot of this jargon weve been discussing.

BM/AF couples arent overrepresented. i can hardly even remember the number of these couples ive ever seen in the media. DONTNUKEIT is correct. I'm disgusted at the way some asians are so shocked and get all angry at seeing one or two black men date one or two asian girls, as if it's "the last straw" or something. Why is it the "last straw"? Why is it worse than a white guy/asian girl couple. In my opinion its probably BETTER. At least you know the girls not selling out or giving into peer pressure. The asian man issue is separate and i agree there seems to be alot of prejudice against us. but for gods sake lets not start hating on black people.

BM/AF couples are more acceptable to the racist white society. In reality, proportion to their population, there are more WM/AF couples than BM/AF couples. By a long shot. However, showing WM/AF couples on shows is not acceptable to whites, particularly white women and teen girls. Hence, they show the BM/AF couple as in Grey's Anatomy.

BM/AF couples are more acceptable to the racist white society. In reality, proportion to their population, there are more WM/AF couples than BM/AF couples. By a long shot. However, showing WM/AF couples on shows is not acceptable to whites, in particular the racist white women and racist white teen girls who watch these shows. Perhaps reminds them of too many Asian women or girls they know dating white men they had eyes on. Hence, they show the BM/AF couple as in Grey's Anatomy.

1. there is a MAJOR UNDER-REPRESENTATAION of AM/AF couples on MAJOR TV when compared to real life. WHY?

AM/AF not generally considered American. George Allen echoed white attitudes when he said welcome to America to a person of Indian origin born and brought up in Virginia.

2 There is an OVER-REPRESENTATION of BM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today compared to real life. WHY?

Answer: Both happen to be non-white and the attitude among the racist white population is let them screw themselves as long as they dont contaminate white blood. In fact, the TV may be trying to encourage non-white pairings and leave the white people alone. Dont be surprised if the Survivor Show is divided into white and non-white next season. Two white groups and two non-white groups perhaps.

3 - there is an UNDER-REPRESENTATION of WM/AF couples on MAJOR TV today WHEN COMPARED to the actual percentages in real life.

Answer: Answer: To appease the racist white women and racist white teen girls who watch these shows and who feel threatened by Asian women and mail order brides perpetuating race mixing. If you had watched CSI last year in one particular show, the characters played by Marg Helgenberger and Jorja Fox are furious that a white suspect has an Asian wife and they take great pleasure in proving that this white suspect actually killed someone. White women and white girls are generally less vocal than black girls and black women but they also despise interracial couples, perhaps more so, and that may be another reason why white women are not paired with non-white men in any TV show. Let us not absolve the racist white females and their preferences.

RAJ;

I can name quite a few shows with BM/AM couplings. I can only name 2 with BM/AF couplings. How does 2 shows overrepresent BM/AF couplings I do not know. I can name a million shows with WM/AF couplings. There is an underrepresentation AF/AM shows and it is sad. There are a lot of conspiracy theories floating around on this blog.

Racism is still present. In fact, the book "America Deceived" was pulled from Amazon and Wikipedia for racist content (not too mention the unflattering parts about Foxnews anchorwomen). Anyway, black, asian, white, who cares.
Last link (before Google Books caves to pressure and pulls the title):
America Deceived (book)

Raj - thanks for answering my questions.

DontNuke and others - I am not (nor was I) 'hating' on BM/AF couples (I think a ways back I actually said I thought it was good). I was just asking for opinions from 'the readers' as to why they thought this was being presented and (more importantly) why they thought the more 'likely' couple 'configurations' were NOT being presented. Raj addressed this.

My point was not that there are too many BM/AF couples on TV, but that COMPARED to the ACTUAL number of BM/AF couples AND WM/AF couples, it seems that MAJOR NETWORK TV is OVERREPRESENTING the BM/AF 'rate'.

The fact that AM/AF couples are woefully underrepresented is glaringly obvious.

But Raj raised a good point on that which I had not considered - 'Americans' want to see 'Americans' on TV and (to obviously too great an extent) 'Asians' are not 'seen' as American and this perception is amplified when the couple is AM/AF. Asian male actors have almost always been cast in part for their 'asian-ness'. Just look at "Lost": while the couple played by Daniel Kim and Yunjin Kim (or Yoon-jin) is a good thing and the writers have delved into the complexity of their lives and characters, they are 'cast' as 'non-Americans'. Both came to the US as infants\toddlers. They are more 'American' than Arnold Schwarzenegger or Mel Gibson neither of whom grow up here, yet both Gibson and AH-nold would be 'cast' as 'American' far more readily than either 'Kim'.

This might deserve some thought as to what goes through OUR collective minds when someone says "He/she is an American". What picture do you get?

I suspect that Raj has hit another spot where some of this current 'couple casting' is driven by. It is unlikely that TV writers are completely immune to or ignorant of the occassional rigor\rancor of debate regarding AF\WM couples ('yellow fever', 'fetish' or 'snow blindness', 'banana') - from both the Asian community and white women. So they may have chosen to 're-cast' the situation so as to avoid (potentially) offending either group. This is similar to the consideration that must be taken into account when representing WM/BF couples - the legacy of slavery and forced (sexual) servitude often bubbles to the surface.

Now DontNuke would you be so kind as to list all of those network programs that have Black Male/Asian Male (BM/AM) couples that you say so readily exist. Given that there are very few Male/Male (aka 'homosexual') couples on MAJOR NETWORK TV, the odds that there are many BM/AM versions seems unlikely. Please don't cite some program that comes on SF cable at 2 AM. That isn't MAJOR NETWORK TV. Also, I doubt that you can name 1000 shows with AF/WM couples that are CURRENTLY BEING BROADCAST. (This means do not list shows that are no longer on).

Raj - thanks for answering my questions.

DontNuke and others - I am not (nor was I) 'hating' on BM/AF couples (I think a ways back I actually said I thought it was good). I was just asking for opinions from 'the readers' as to why they thought this was being presented and (more importantly) why they thought the more 'likely' couple 'configurations' were NOT being presented. Raj addressed this.

My point was not that there are too many BM/AF couples on TV, but that COMPARED to the ACTUAL number of BM/AF couples AND WM/AF couples, it seems that MAJOR NETWORK TV is OVERREPRESENTING the BM/AF 'rate'.

The fact that AM/AF couples are woefully underrepresented is glaringly obvious.

But Raj raised a good point on that which I had not considered - 'Americans' want to see 'Americans' on TV and (to obviously too great an extent) 'Asians' are not 'seen' as American and this perception is amplified when the couple is AM/AF. Asian male actors have almost always been cast in part for their 'asian-ness'. Just look at "Lost": while the couple played by Daniel Kim and Yunjin Kim (or Yoon-jin) is a good thing and the writers have delved into the complexity of their lives and characters, they are 'cast' as 'non-Americans'. Both came to the US as infants\toddlers. They are more 'American' than Arnold Schwarzenegger or Mel Gibson neither of whom grow up here, yet both Gibson and AH-nold would be 'cast' as 'American' far more readily than either 'Kim'.

This might deserve some thought as to what goes through OUR collective minds when someone says "He/she is an American". What picture do you get?

I suspect that Raj has hit another spot where some of this current 'couple casting' is driven by. It is unlikely that TV writers are completely immune to or ignorant of the occassional rigor\rancor of debate regarding AF\WM couples ('yellow fever', 'fetish' or 'snow blindness', 'banana') - from both the Asian community and white women. So they may have chosen to 're-cast' the situation so as to avoid (potentially) offending either group. This is similar to the consideration that must be taken into account when representing WM/BF couples - the legacy of slavery and forced (sexual) servitude often bubbles to the surface.

Now DontNuke would you be so kind as to list all of those network programs that have Black Male/Asian Male (BM/AM) couples that you say so readily exist. Given that there are very few Male/Male (aka 'homosexual') couples on MAJOR NETWORK TV, the odds that there are many BM/AM versions seems unlikely. Please don't cite some program that comes on SF cable at 2 AM. That isn't MAJOR NETWORK TV. Also, I doubt that you can name 1000 shows with AF/WM couples that are CURRENTLY BEING BROADCAST. (This means do not list shows that are no longer on).

Questioner:

I dont think they give a damn what Asian Americans think. I would say that many Asians would find the BM/AF couples more offensive. I dont like this attitude but this is true. The media still portrayes BM/AF couples. I think the only people they are afraid of offending is the racist white woman. You go to places such as Littleton or Evergreen, Colorado, you would know what I mean. At a cafe, I heard a bunch of twenty something white women complain about the Asian women stealing "their" men. Go to Alabama, Mississippi or Georgia or for that matter any southern state, it is far worse. There you get really racist white female viewers. The producers do not want to offend these racist female viewers by showing WM/AF couples. The only consideration here is the what the white female thinks.

Questioner:

One more thing. The movie industry, whether Hollywood or not would not mind matching up white looking South Asian woman with a white man. This happened in Bride and Prejudice where Bollywood actress Aishwarya Rai was paierd with Martin Henderson..

http://www.miramax.com/bride/

Well, Ms. Rai is close to being, for a lack of a better term, white...so much so, even Stormfront.org was discussing this...

http://images.askmen.com/top-99/2006/pictures/aishwarya-rai-pics.jpg

There are other Indian actors who may be paired with white men such as the really white looking Preity Zinta..

http://123india.santabanta.com/wallgallery1.asp?catid=1677

or for that matter Kareena Kapoor..

http://dcealumni.com/gallery/films/kareena-kapoor-wallpapers/kareena_kapoor81.jpg

If these women were paired with African American men it would seriously offend the sensibilities of not just racist white women, but all racist whites as well.

what about Asians?

I have a question. Whats wrong with Movies that are produced in Asia? Asians do thrive in the Cinema buisness. Asian Men are lead men in these movies. Bollywood is a giant, second to Hollywood. When I was in India I was amazed at how good these movies were. I bought a great movie called JIZM starring the ultra beautiful Bipasha Basu and John Abraham. Its one of my favorite movies. The only way a movie like JIZM can make it to the US is if Asian suppport it. I see great movies being produced, but no one push these movies to come stateside. Why are Asians in America so fixated with Hollywood? From what ive seen around the world Asians do not need Hollywood to be successful on TV, or in the cinema. Ive seen Asians movies written, produced and directed by Asian filmmakers.These movies are better than 90 percent of the crap Hollywood produces. Over here in Asia they have their own thing going own. In America from what I see its like lets get a Jin in movies like 2 fast and 2 furious 2, or lucy liu trying to be whiter than white, or blacker than black. Dont get me wrong I love Jin. Hollywood does not care who they offend. If Hollywood is going to make a million dollars then they will put a BM/WF, OR whoever if it means a lucrative profit is going to be made. Thats why you see the relationships on ER, Greys Anatomy because the ratings are high. On this one particular chat room I go to the Asian Girls in there cant wait to see whats going to happen next.All the Asian girls in this roon do like Hip Hop dancing and R@B, so if i went to a Led Zepplin Chat room the it would be a different response I guess. Im not an expert on these issues. Me and my Asian wife will be moving to the states soon. Ive been overseas for so long, im not sure what whats going on. I mean I go stateside to visit months at a time, but still. Your opinions would be most appreciated.

foreign films, in general, do not do all that well in the US. There are exceptions of course. Much of that has to do with language or subtitles and other aspects of cultural familiarity. You have to remember that Asian-Americans are still 'American' so that is a big influence on where their 'point of view' comes from as it relates to culture.

Hey Raj, i checked out your links. All of the ladies are gorgeous, but I would never 'mistake' them for being of European descent.

it doesnt matter, if your culture is Indian then you should relate to Bollywood. It Doesnt matter if you moved to the states 7 years ago, or a year ago

you have ruled out the idea of having been born here. why does this not exist as an option? what if someone moved here when they were an infant? a toddler? get rational.

presenting silly arguments simply wastes time.

Here are the problems with Asian films serving as an antidote to Hollywod - (1) only a very small % of Americans go see foreign films (so most American's impression of Asian males and females will be what they see coming out of Hollywood; (2) perpetuates the "foreigner" stereotype; (3) most Asian-Ams who are born/raised here have little interest in watching "Asian fare" (nevermind the problems with different languages/cultures) - they want to see what their friends see (even young Hispanic Americans have left Spanish networks) - which is why the number of Hispanic male characters on network TV has exploded (does anyone expect black Americans to watch shows/films from Africa?) and (4) Asian-Americans, like everyone else, want to see images of people that they can relate to (that means Asian-Ams and not Asians).

Dontnukeit - The vast majority of Asian-Americans follow “white culture” (the viewing patterns of Asian-Ams don’t differ much at all from that of whites) and many Asian female writers/film-makers usually have a WM love interest for their AF characters (“Joy Luck Club”; “Red Doors”). I’m don’t know if anyone here is offended by the 2 prominent portrayals of AF/BM couples (I’m not) – but the problem rather has to do with Hollywood making same-race couples the norm with the exception of Asians. So the problem isn’t the portrayal of AF/BM per se – but rather that such a portrayal (which is a small %) is more common than that of AM/AF (of course, the other shoe is that AFs have predominantly been paired with WMs - and many Asian-Ams, at least the ones who are aware of such things, would rather see AF/BM couplings than AF/WM).

It’s pretty sad when there hasn’t yet been a SINGLE Asian-American couple portrayed on television.

As for getting more Asians in Hollywood (yes – that will help, but even the ones that are there now don’t have the power to effect much change) – the quicker alternative would be for the Asian-American community to be more vocal (just as the black community had been).

Today – you will see many attractive, professional BM characters on network TV (on shows produced by whites for largely a white audience) and the same recently has occurred for Hispanic males (even though Hispanics haven’t really been complaining). The only group this hasn’t occurred for is Asian males (and Asians are the ONLY group where the female portrayals outnumber that for males).

You also see a similar pattern with regardst to news-anchors. There are BM (and HM) anchors in many of the local metro markets and in national broadcasts and yet, you won’t find more than 1-2 AM anchors (while there are numerous AF anchors in both local and national broadcasts).

Raj is simply wrong with the number of AF/WM portrayals as well as for the “white racist” rational. There have been significantly more AF/WM portrayals on TV than AF/BM (and in film, it’s even more heavily skewed to AF/WM).

Plus, there have been numerous portrayals of BM/WF couples on network TV, despite the fact that many WMs, racist or not, would have more of an issue with that than WFs with AF/WM portrayals (eg – the WFs on the dating show that had aired on ABC treated the AF, who only dated WMs, as just another “white girl.” A BF probably wouldn’t have been as comfortable or fit in as easily).

A qustioner, dean

All asian are not white, or follow white patterns. When I was in High School Asians had their own little clicks, my best friend was Vietnmese and we had known each other since
since 2nd grade. His parents raised him to be a Vietnamese in America, not a white Vietnamese in America. A lot of his Vietnamese culture was practiced in his household. There is a difference. I truly see Hollywood has fooled everyone in here. If I see another Asian act, talk, or dress black im going to go crazy as well, SO to a degree you are wrong with the all Asians following white culture, or the vast majority, but I can say enough do. I wouldnt deny that. This comment has nothing to do with Asians, but Black American Culture is the most imitated culture not just in America, but the World. As far as White Culture goes, I dont know what white culture is because all the white dudes try to act black as well. This is not Hollywood, this is what I see everyday. Rinku Sen wrote and article on why are Asians are so obsessed with Hip Hop. Do not let me start with such people as Miss info, Oliver Wang and Jeff Chang.Im Black American, my ancestors have been here for over 400 years and yet we still have our own culture. To say Asians in America do not have their own culture in America and are just white is a little steep dean, but maybe some Asians want to hear that, I dont know. Most of all its about ratings, that what it boils down to. People are looking at this. BM/AF must bring a lot of profit to primetime, they keep prmoting it. money is the key word . Questioner just because someone was born in America doesnt mean they are going to forget who they are, or where their ancestors came from. The arguement was not silly, but valid.

Dean, you hit a lot of my points square on. One that I never see explored or at least I've yet to see any rational response from AFs is the tendency for AFs to look for WMs as romantic interests. I have heard many AMs complain about the issue and I have heard many AFs complain about WMs having an 'asian fetish' and how a good proportion of AFs find this offensive, but the fact still remains that there is a big percentage of AFs that actively seek and make discriminating selections in favor of WM as romantic partners. I would appreciate hearing from AFs as to why this is the case.

DontNuke - you are correct, Black American culture (or some subset of it, as it is NOT monolithically 'hip-hop') is very much imitated on a global basis. The amazing and annoying thing about that is these 'others' (the imitators) WANT the 'look' but they don't want the people who are the source. To whit, many AsianAm 'cultures' are very anti-Black. In fact, the 'intensity' of their bigotry often exceeds that of whites.

I went to a High School that had a lot of Asians. I use to walk around and watch all the whites Kids call these Vietnamese kids "Gooks", and everyday after school pick fights with. My friend Kim Nguyn was someone I had known since 2nd grade, but as time went on we lost touch with each other. In 10th grade we started to talk again, but Nguyn had a problem a couple of those good ole boys was bashing his face in every chance they got. Me and my friend was walking home and I Remember a white guy named David, who a lot of black people in the school hated, called my friend out and said he was going to kick his ass, trying to impress his other white friends. I could not understand why out of all these different ethnic groups in my school, Asians were the most targeted by whites. Well if they Came at the Blacks we wouldve kick their assess. To make a long story short I told David that if he fought anyone that day it would be me and any day after if he came at my friend again. This is why my Asian friend does Hip Hop. It was a median to talk about his culture, racism he faced and obstacles he overcame. Ive had a lot of Asians that tell me they had a lot in common with blacks. Ive met plenty of Asians in America that adored Black Americans. When they see my wife is Asians it all comes out. But at the same time I will say there are a lot of Asians that do not want to have anything to do with Blacks and I will admit that. Questioner, I see you are in denial to certain things, but its cool. How can you imtate and emulate someone you hate, Im not getting it. Some Asian Americans are bigoted toward, blacks, but some have shown us a lot of love. Raj are you voting for that Senator from Virginia?, What was it he said about Asians, or Desis. I dont care how much you try to justify yourself, He is the one that looks at you the same way he looks at me. An Asian friend told me that qoute. So A questioner we deal with 2 different types of Asians. Lets just say that

DontNuke, What exactly am I in denial of? Who am I emulating and imitating? Wno is it that I hate?

What are you talking about?

DontNuke, What exactly am I in denial of? Who am I emulating and imitating? Wno is it that I hate?

What are you talking about?

Dont –

I never said that Asians (and esp. ALL Asians) are white, but that the vast majority in the US follow the same viewing patterns (with regard to TV/film) as white America (these are from studies done by movie studios and the TV networks) – just as the viewing patterns of black Americans is markedly different (I’m not talking about whether Asian-Ams keep any of their ethnic traditions or to what extent).

Sure - there are pockets of Asian-Ams who mainly view videos of TV shows/films from their native lands (usually more recent immigrants) or largely follow “black urban culture” – but the majority have the same viewing patterns as mainstream white America (even in Asia – the most popular shows are “Friends”; “Sex in the City”; “Desperate Housewives”; etc.).

And while “black urban culture” has become mainstream – saying that everyone is trying to “act black” is going a bit overboard. Rock and country music are still very popular among non-black Americans (and even among some blacks as well).

Most whites (as well as Asian-Ams) shop at The Gap, JCrew, American Eagle, Abercrombie, Banana Republic (they should rename BR “Asian-Am Republic” for the no. of Asian-Ams who shop there), Express, Eddie Bauer, Land’s End, Timberland, Ann Klein, Ann Taylor LLBeane, Ralph Lauren, Lacoste, Nautica, Calvin Klein, Kenneth Cole, etc. (not to mention all of the European design houses).

Plus, if white/Asian Americans were really into “black urban culture” – their viewing habits would be similar to that of the majority of black Americans (but it isn’t) and the marriage rates of Asian-Ams to blacks would be higher than what it is (about 1.3%).

In Asia – there is still a heavy bias against darker skinned people (even in places like the Philippines where there are ethnicities of varying skin-tones) . Otoh, hapas who are half-white are celebrated in places like Singapore and Thailand (where hapas have become mainstays in film and modeling).

Asian-Ams really haven’t developed an Asian-Am culture. Most Asian-Ams just try to preserve some of their ethnic culture or don’t care to and assimilate in with mainstream society (plus the differences in Asian cultures and traditional ethnic animosities don’t help either). There are a small group of Asian-Am musicians, artists and film-makers who have produced work with Asian-Am issues/context – but not enough to really say that there is an Asian-Am culture.

Quest –

These are generally the primary reasons for this phenomena – (1) the media (from TV, film, commercials, advertisements) primarily show AFs partnered with WMs; (2) the media primarily shows AMs in a negative stereotypical fashion (short, meek, geeky and effeminate a la “Long Duk Dong” and “William Hung” or abusive and chauvinistic); (3) many Asian-Ams have grown up in suburban (and largely white) communities and like all kids – want to fit in and be like their peers (have crushes on teen idols such as Orlando Bloom – there are no AM teen idols in the US); (4) some AFs (as well as some AMs – though not as much) due to the media images – have an issue with self-esteem and identity and dating a white person is seen as the ultimate form of “acceptance” and “belonging”; (5) some Asian parents (particularly mothers) urge their daughters to marry white and (6) some Asian-Ams think that by marrying a white person – that they will have beautiful children (this, btw, is a false belief).

DEAN:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Dec-16-Sun-2001/business/17638493.html

http://missinfo.blip.tv/file/73253/

halfkorean.comhttp://halfkorean.com/hk_star/kay_crystal.shtml

http://www.halfkorean.com/halfstar.html

look at this website. On the right is a bunch of names of mixed Korean celebrities. Even I was amazed at how many of them were half/African American. This is not my point for posting this, I think we all would learn something from this site.

http://www.halfkorean.com/halfstar.html

Dean,

thanks for the post. One thing I have been stupified by is the big 'addiction' to Abercrombie and
Fitch by Asians and this is after A&F got sued for discriminating against minorities, MANY of whom were Asian Amercian women. It boggles my mind! Are they simply unaware of these issues? It was a pretty big deal, especially on the West Coast.

You guys do know that Korean society looks down upon mixed children (and particularly half-black children)?

Which is why Hines Ward highlighted the problem during his visit to Korea.

I'm not saying there isn't a % of Asian women (who are seeking foreigners) who go out with BMs due to the hip hop (or economic reasons) - but the majority of Asian women who go for foreigners - go for WMs.

Look at the marriage statistics in the US - the % of Asian-Am women married to BMs (whether they are 1st gen or 2nd gen) is about 1%. Likewise for Asian-Am males. (If a large % of Asian-Ams were truly immersed in "black urban culture" - the marriage statistics should, at least, show a % of Asian-Am marriages close to that of the % of blacks in the pop. - 12-13%.)

Quest - Unfortunately, a lot of Asian-Ams don't know or don't care and shop at Abercrombie.

Even my cousin and her friends (who were visiting from Asia) wanted to shop at Abercrombie, until I told them about the racist t-shirts (they ended up shopping at American Eagle).

http://www.club-b045.com/sub1.htm

This was one of my favorite of many clubs. Im aware of how Koreans look down on mix couples and a little more with those mixed with black. I will admit, Koreans and Blacks are not the best of friends, but niether are Korean and Japanese. My wifes parents did not approve of us dating, but my wifes parents did not of approve her Japanese boyfriend who was a lawyer either. I had all the strikes against me. Im black, in the Military and from America, which they despised. But my wife chose me over them. Like a lot of rebellious Asian Youths that are so influenced by western culture, Black culture leading the way. They are making there own decision. Some Japanese parents are ok with it, but if they are older traditional Japanese like my wifes parents then you are going to have a headache. I dont care if you are black, or white. My wifes parents are in there mid 70s. When the US bomb Japan my wifes father was in his early teens. When Tokyo was bomb I recall him saying he had to jump in one of tokyo harbors to avoid being killed. He lost brothers and Sisters from the raids. My wife mother moved to tokyo from the Nagasaki area. She lost family members from the Nuclear bomb. So I cant blame her parents for hating the US Miltary, but they love our son. He is the world to them. I think Asia would be a real experience for the 2 of you. I dont know whats in the water in Korea, but they keep having a lot of black/korean babies despite the hardships. I know a lot of those couples move to hawaii like Amere Rogers who pic was in that session. I hear hawaii is a haven for BM/KOREAN realtionships

What do Korean and Japanese relationships have to do with this?

Korea and Japan really aren't that different. Both have a small segment of the female pop. who seek out foreigners (for a variety of reasons)- however, the segment seeking BM over WM expats is smaller.

Are all the Japanese/black American couples deciding to stay in Japan? Otherwise, why would their % of Japanese-Am IR marriages be so low (in comparison to that with whites)?

I know a couple of BMs who live in Japan and they constantly remark about how they are treated less well than their WM expat counterparts and about how the images of BMs on Japanese TV tends to be stereotypical and offensive.

I'm sure your Japanese in-laws love your son - but that's often the case when grandchildren are born.

Japan and the rest of Asia have a long way to go with regards to how they view blacks (aside from the narrow viewpoint of hip-hop culture) - and btw, I have traveled extensively in Asia.

Dean,

thank you for your post. I am very aware of the (generally) negative attitude of most of Asia towards blacks and the Korean attitude towards mixed race people and dark-skinned people. I have spent time in various parts of Asia as well. We can all point to various singular circumstances that defy the statistics, but you hit the nail on the head - it would seem rational that IF Asian who were interested in marrying non-Asians (in the US) had no biases against Blacks, that the stats would show a 'mix' of BM/AF and AM/BF marriages close to the population demographics of Blacks in the country - 12 - 13%. But the statistics show a very one-sided slant - 99% of asian women who are married to non-asians are married to white men. The apparant disconnect between these statistics and what prime time TV is 'showing' was what fueled my inquiry on this thread at the start.

One thing that does bug me is the consistant 'myopic link' of Black = Hip-hop. It is as if Black Amercians had no 'culture' or discernible identity before hip-hop. There are plenty of Black people that do not wear their pants around their butts; wear outrageous jewelry; put rims on their cars or drink 40s. That is probably what fuels the annoyance of those Blacks who find the typical TV and media representations in Asia offensive. It is unlikely that a Black person working in Japan, Seoul or Beijing for some company is a 'full time b-boy'. This is the same sort of stereotyping that Asian males find offensive in the US media - geeks, domineering assholes and kung fu masters. Even Daniel Kim's characteron Lost had some of that 'I'm the boss, woman!!' stuff laced into his character.

Dont - you seem to think I have some sort of 'problem' with BM/AF couples on TV. This is not the case at all. I just am confused as to why there is this recent 'trend' of showing a 'couple configuration' (AF/BM) in proportions much larger than it actual occurance which tends to 'downplay' the extent to which the 'real deal' (AF/WM) is happening? Funny thing, someone cited the Asian girl on that 'Try to find a man' reality show (can't recall its real name) who woudl only date white guys. The fact that she is a 'real' asian woman as opposed to a character played by an actress on TV sort of reinforces my point - Art is not imitating reality. You have only to look on CL's "W4M" page and 'search; under Asian and see how many asian women are looking for exclusively white men. Not Black, not Latino and often not even Asian - ONLY 'caucasians'. That has GOT to sting to many an Asian man.

Things happen for a reason. I was trying to figure out that reason.

Quest

Im not saying there isnt a lot of Asian women looking for WM. Im just saying there are some that like brothers, I have met some that only date black exclusively. Thats why I can this post to be truthful. Ive lived in 2 Asian countries (not just visited) In Asian, why do a lot of these asian girls take melanin pills to make their skin dark like black people? why do the frizz their hair like afros, or wear braids. Why is the large Asian population walking around with Tupac and Bob MArley shirts and every other famous black popular artist I can think of beside Elvis Presley. If Fillipinos hate dark Skin so much then that like saying they hate themselves. Ive been to Manila and Subic Bay twice. Black have no-culture. Rock N Roll, Jazz, Blues, R@b, and HIp Hop all came from The African American Community. So guys kind of re-think.

Dont,

you seem to have trouble getting what I'm saying. In no way am I suggesting that Black people have no culture. What I am saying is that this culture is older, broader and deeper than hip-hop.

What I disagree with is the constant 'presentation' of hip-hop as the only 'real' representation of African American culture. I disagree with African Americans that buy into that propaganda. It is untrue, overly restrictive and, in many ways, detrimental to the progress of African Americans and Black people everywhere because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity. It turns a culture into a cartoon - just like 'Shaolin Masters', while honorable unto itself, mocks Chinese culture when it becomes the most common framework in which Asian men are seen. You've lived in Asia, you know how untrue that is. These types of narrrow representations limit the range of humanity that Blacks, Asians and others are seen in.

As for those Asian girls that have a 'black fetish' - they certainly exist, but they are in the distinct minority. There is almost always an exception to any rule. Also, just because someone wants to bite on the culture doesn't mean that they want the creators of that culture to move in next door (think of Elvis Pressley and early Rock 'n Roll). To the extent that you are accepted, that is no surprise either. A single individual (as in 'lone', not 'unmarried') is rarely a threat. If you are fluent in Japanese, that is a big help. But let 20 other Balck guys move into the neighborhood and start dating...a different reaction will probably occur.

I speak broken Japanese, but a enough to get around. Its a pain in the but teaching my son english, because he goes to a Japanese daycare. OK, let me explain this Japan to me is like America, but just one race. You have the BM/AF fetish, but at the same time there is a lot marriges between BM/JN over here. You have the WM/JN fetish with marriages the same. Then you have the JN/american fetish which mean they will talk to anyone from America reguardless of color. Japanese females mostly prefer Japanese males over both. It just boils done to what Western Culture the females like the most.Japanese are mostly into Black American Culture at the moment. Quest, you are right it goes past the scope of Hip Hop. When I was talking about my parents resenting me because im black, well they hate white as well and just as much. Japanese parents from the Babyboom period are kinda cool, but if you go past that age then they can be snobbish, at least that is my experience. Maybe in America its a distinct Minority for BM/AF realtionships, but not overseas. Well Japan if you took the BM/JN and WM/JN. White guys are not really winning that battle. I would give BM the edge, or its a close tie. If you add all the African over here that pretty much run all the clubs in Roppongi that would put us over the top by far. Well their are a lot of African over here. I see Europeans to , but from what ive seen, more Africans. Then again this area is so Huge who knows. I mean did you look at that half Korean.com websites. It was just as many Black Korean as white. I dont care what stats say, I just go by what I see. Like I said, Ive seen Japanese girls that actually tried to tan their skin Black. A lot of them

You can’t just go on personal observations, since what you see is often influenced by personal biases and particular situations (if you went to San Francisco and saw a lot of gay men – are you then going to say that 30-35% of the men in America must be gay simply based on your observations?)

You can go to any particular nightclub in Korea, Japan, Thailand, etc. and depending on which group they cater to (white or black Americans) – each group will think that Asian women fawn over them. Many WM expats are under the misguided notion that all AFs are after them b/c they go to the bars/clubs where AFs (who seek out WMs) tend to congegrate.

The two sub-cultures of Japanese girls (the “Ganguro” and the more tame “Kogal”) are known for rebelling against Japanese norms for feminine beauty (pale skin, raven black hair) and opt for a more “American” look – tanned skin, bleached hair, color contacts) - while a minority of the Ganguro girls may be emulating American BF celebs, the majority of the Ganguro girls (who bleach their hair blonde and wear blue/green contact lenses) and the Kogal girls are thought to emulate the tanned look of white Californian girls.

I’m sure there are marriages btwn American BMs and JFs – but unless all of them have decided to stay in Japan (which is highly doubtful) – they should be showing up in the US Census statistics.

And just b/c some Japanese are fans of the hip-hop culture – don’t think that the majority of Japanese people have a negative view towards all foreigners, and in particular, to those with darker skin (just as the popularity of the hip-hop culture in the US doesn’t mean that there isn’t problems with regard to racism and discrimination against blacks here).

The images of BM on Japanese TV and of blacks in general in the press are still highly negative (reminscent of racist images of BMs in the US during the 40s and 50s).

Im not basing everything off one venue. Ive been all over Asia. Ive been all over Japan. Lived in Japan for 4 years and TAD in Korea for a year. They always throw Census at me. Well I never did a cansus and niether have any of my friends that have Asian wives that lived in the states either. So who does that pertain to. I never said there wasnt any discrimination in Japan, but based on me being black, I never expereinced it. I expereirenced discrimnation as being an American. Ive went to venues with my white friends and they said foriegnors not allowed. A lot of blacks as well as whites integrate themselves in the community and that kills alot of the stereotypes. The only blacks I see on NHK, or Japanese TV is Bob Sapp and that African dude Bobby. They are like Superstars here. I look at Japanese TV as well. The Japanese society is not perfect either. The point ive been trying to make of all this is that this relationship on a international view, not just an American view is possible. I can name some real life stories that descibe this post. So it is fact and make sense

I'm a African American and i love women from India. i think they are fine as hell. Screw all that racial crap!
Cause we are all human beings and race should not matter. Is there any girls from India here who would like to marry me? Namaste.... baby!

India, more so than any other society in the world, frowns upon inter-religious, inter-caste, and interracial relationships. This is an obvious attempt at stirring-up controversy and to drive up ratings. I for one could care less about the south asian female/black male dynamic, because in reality it's a complete anomaly, the funnier discrepency comes with the lack of indian/pakistani and east asian male doctors on the program. But who cares, we are out there actually becoming doctors rather than striving to play one on TV.

a questioner:

i like what you have to say. but you're kinda mean...but in any case, you are obviously beasting out everyone on this post thread.

anonymous:

umm...nice try.
_______________ _ _ _

i agree staunchly with much of what a questioner states in many of her (?) posts above. a south asian american woman myself, i agree that relationships with black men can be extremely complicated in that there is a great degree of anti-black sentiment within the south asian diaspora; and it is probably true that this racism does not go without mutual exchange of hatred.

for me, to watch "neela" marry "michael" is almost ludicrous; i know a few BM/(S)AF couples, but that it was barely influenced by neela's family's politics on that episode of ER was completely unbelievable to me. her parents, if you remember the episode when they came to visit her (played by real life hub&wife anupam and kirron kher), showed us that they were very conservative desis. why was it so easy for neela to get hitched without recourse?

i also agree with bean when he talks about the deliberate casting of AF and BM together to fulfill diversity quotas. i'm sure it is all in the economics of television programming, but i'll avoid a marxist critique here.

but to change subjects, a questioner, you mentioned this:

"It is untrue, overly restrictive and, in many ways, detrimental to the progress of African Americans and Black people everywhere because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity."

don't get me started on the "whiteness" of progress, etc. if you are a true believer in the gospel of the one and only stuart hall, why would you believe "african americans" buy into this; that too, isn't buying a conscious choice, a preemptive decision? you use the terms buy and propaganda so loosely, i am beginning to suspect if you honestly believe that "african americans" don't realize their own plight. how can anyone prosyletize on the subject of authenticity and "african americanism" (if such a thing really exists) when even "african americans" have no clear handle on the way they wish to be represented, even if it is through the hip hop "culture"?

BTW. i *think* that gangster rap, and its spawn of "gangster" hip hop, died out with 2pac and biggie. it also was particularly hastened by p.diddy's (formerly known as puffy) exit from the gangster world. the hip hop music community is like the UN; everyone has alliances and when the big fish goes anti-gangster, so do a lot of others. okay, fine, fat joe, 50 cent and snoop still try, but we all know where coolio (and lil' kim, too) is right now -- and you know these luxurified current rapsters don't want to experience the high life by way of high-security prisons. so, please don't tell me that hip hop is all gangster when it is so obviously not.

and also, along the same line, not to be preachy a questioner, but do unto others as you would have them do unto you. stop homogenizing the "black" community or otherwise don't expect understanding by them or anyone else on the Asian-American plight to gain representation. having grown up in a "black", lower middle-class neighborhood my whole life, i doubt my so-called "progressive" friends would appreciate your criticism because it is a bit off mark.

nonetheless, i am intrigued by the rest of the comments made by you a questioner, so don't have a hissy fit. everyone else, you should strive to be as thorough and well-versed as AQ when she is on the fly, because she's pretty much got this. and she has great taste in men (i.e. -- daniel kim :P), so more "brownie" points there for her...not that i have any authority there whatsoever to apportion points, lol.

peace to the middle east (and jammu & kashmir).

best,

mudphud girl

Wow..so much controversy over such an irrational emotion. Love.

Anyway, I chose to marry a Trinidadian guy and being from a traditional Indian family that stirred up quite a few emotions in everyone.

Although, I must admit that I sort love the look on my aunts/uncles faces when they hear about him. The look of sheer terror! HAHA...

The silly part is, he's West-Indian, which means he looks just like some people in my family. But yea, the whole thing about caste, religion and being 'inferior' to my dumbass relatives always is an issue. I personally couldn't care less what they or anyone else thinks of my relationship. My parents came around and even if they hadn't, it still wouldn't have stopped me. When you find love, you hang on for dear life! So to hell with race, caste, religion and the rest of that crap!

If I wasn't so damn influenced by my mom's spirituality, I'd swear I'd be an atheist. I loathe the walls that are put up between people based on crap that happend centuries ago. Sprituality and having your own beliefs is fine, but when you start thinking one group is better and/or inferior to another based on those beliefs, that really blows!

I guess I'm a hippy at heart, and hopefully one day people will just learn to live and let live.

Oh...and all these retarded-ass shows (ER, CSI, Desperate Housewives, Greys, blah blah blah) along with the garbage reality shows really stink!

Im a black man and ive been to India. Goa India to be exact. I dont think to many people there was looking down on anyone. That was the poorest country ive ever seen, besides Africa. When I was in Singapore I went to Sultan Muhammad st. Met an Indian girl. We dated internationaly for a while, but the distance ended that. Well I ended it. America is the different. I guess when people who were not born in America lands here. The question is which way are we going to go. Blacks, yes we are rebellious against injustice, but I mean it in a good way. We will challenge the system reguardless if it pisses off mainstream America. So naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people, but at the same time they cant get of enough of our culture and and yes mudphudgirl, there is Black American Culture, Its not American. Well I guess I have more bad news for you. Another show with and BM/AM lead.
correct me if im wrong but the show is daybreak, starring taye diggs on ABC.
My friend that works for the Dept of State in Singapore married an Indian Girl. But thats Overseas so I guess it doesnt count. Check this out.

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0505/225064.html

Hi WELL, WELL,

Oh! I never said there was no African American mainstream culture. I realize, too, that the reason it perpetuates is most definitely because White middle America consumes black culture...and admittedly so do I *brown is beautiful, too!* :P Not to say that blacks do not consume these cultural things, too. What I meant was that black culture has aspects of it that are not consciously created by blacks, and also not consciously consumed by blacks. I was upset that it could be assumed that blacks want to subscribe to "backward" identities like "gangster" and consciously carry on the "bad image" and sterotypes that go along with it. I've never met a black person who (still, lol) listens to Coolio or 50 Cent tell me that they always wanted to become a gangster when they grew up. Or that Gangster rap in some way represented them, other than through the resistance movements that you speak of.
(Unless of course if they were actually in gangs, and I met many who were, but they were not in the majority...)

I was just trying to be academic and reference preeminent culture studies theorist Stuart Hall in my last post. I guess I was not clear enough...

Umm...I don't get what you meant by "naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people..." That is a big assumption there! My parents, though they are cultural relativists, call all their so-called "african" colleagues some of the most genial and intelligent people they have met. Where would there be space to be taught to hate blacks in India, I just don't see it...

Best,
MudPhud Girl

Mud Pud Girl:

Well I agree with you on that aspect. Some of the brightest Scientist, Doctors, and politician in America are Black Americans and has always been. The problem is no one talks about DR Ben Carson, or Garrette A. Morgan. They always show that gangster garbbage on MTV because it sells and a large quantity of the youth falls for that crap. 50 cents to me is the stephen fetchet of the 2k. a sell out in the worse form. While working with the U. S Military Ive traveled extensively throughout Asia. Ive visited 3 countries in Asia with large Indian populations. The Homeland(India), Singapore and Malaysia. Ive seen divisions among some Asian interest of Love, culture and Politics as far as those that had interest in the west. I went to Goa, too many Hippie Europeans there. I wasnt so popular in the Motherland with the Women. When I went to Singapore the Indians there went Black man Crazy. The funny thing about it,We met a crowd of Indian girls in the clark quey district they took us a Club were all the Black people hang. Im Thinking they were talking about people of African disporia, but they meant Indians. It was a Hip Hop club with a crunk DJ and half of the people in there was darker than me. there was a lot of American Military from the Sembawang Air Force, Navy base there. It was a club in Singapore on the world famous Mohammad Sultan Rd. I spent a week with this Indian Girl. We watched Bollywood movies and I was introduced to Indian culture for the first time. I will admit Indian women are the most beautiful women in the world. one of my favorite Movies is a Indian Movie starring Bipasha Basu named JIZM. The point im making is this love affair can happen on an international level. Ive seen Black men dating Indian Girls Overseas. Once people come to America they want to be American as possible and kiss who ever butt is in power to get that honorary card. Im Black, but I do not listen to Hip Hop. A lot of my Black friends do not listen to American Hip Hop. If you do not talk to a lot of Black Americans then you would know this. We are Individuals first then a race second. I listen to old R@B music from the 50s to the early 80s when people actually could sing. This relationship between neela and the Captain is some what realisitc because its more of an International relationship than domestic. She is from the UK, He is in the Military. These types of relationships are happening among Asians and Blacks. Kinda like Tiger Woods. American Asians and Blacks well maybe thats a different story. despite some of the hatred that people are taught towards one another is the same. At this moment I here people talking about how much the hate Arabs since 9/11. Ive read a story how a sikh was discrminated against because ignorant people thought he was he a threat. People see certains Asians of muslim faith and discriminate against them just as hard as blacks. Some of them were indonesian and Indian(sikhs). So see the power of media. See how it makes people think. This was in reference to that assumption comment made above. Everyone has assumtions about everyone, not just blacks. Japanese and Koreans are taught to hate each other from what I was told and seen. when I went those countries. Because of all the slaughtering and rapes committed by the Japanese Military when they invaded Korea and China before WWII. This is a topic thats talked about till this day over there. Ive seen the hate between these two countries first hand. Deep, I guess the second point im making is the hate bigger than black people in different countries. Everyone here is on an American way of thinking and thinks the rest of the world thinks as they do. Whites, Blacks and Asians alike. Im not saying im an expert on some of this stuff, but I can honostly say that i gathered my info from talking to the source and yet a lot is from assumptions. So that will give you an idea as well

MPG,

AQ here. No hissy fit on the horizon. I was flattered to be so elegantly quoted, commended and challenged. And linked to Stuart Hall??!! Well, I got a promotion didn't I? Good to see that some readers can take a 'problem' posed and shift their view to a larger frame of reference than their own personal experiences. Any of us can cite individuals or incidents that counter statistical norms, be they media depictions or actual couples, but the statistical norms are just that for a reason.

I think you misunderstood my "...because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity." statement.

First, I am not saying that all (or even most) Black Americans 'buy into' this belief - I don't think that most Black Americans want to be or consider themselves 'gangstas' nor do they believe that the portrayal of same in videos and the like are the norm for Black American life. What I am saying is that all too often, this narrow presentation of 'Black America' is the one that is shown and posited as 'normal' for Black [people] - maybe more targetedly, Black American males under the age of 28. Also, 'gangsterism' is not synonymous with 'gangsta rap', but even P.Diddy (honestly, how gangster can you be with the name 'Diddy"???) fell into the trap of his wanna-be press clippings and videos with the stupid 'gun play in the club' routine a couple years ago. Maybe the term shouldn't be 'gangster' but definitely there are 'social norm' problems when concepts like 'pimpin' and 'Tip Drill' become synonymous with s group of people and a 'culture'.

Cohorts of Busta Rhymes being shot, Fabolous being shot, Benie Sigel in Philly...there is too long of a list of 'bad boys' (and some girls) who all 'sing the same' and 'look the same' such that 'middle America' won't make the effort to sort out the good from the bad - sort of like Memoirs of a Geisha with an all Chinese cast (except the guy). [You know there all "Asian" something or others, so...]

The short form, broad spectrum read will be 'Rap people have bad things happen around them. They are trouble.' Along with that will be the never ending series of commercials, etc, with 'rap' soundtracks and 'identifiably' Black voices, photo shoots with 'angry looking Black men in oversized clothes'...

and presto! change-o! Media Image\Message Framing!
Rap People=Trouble;
Rap People=Black People;
Black People=Trouble.

Not a tough sell in the US - they have been at it a while. Rap is just the latest 'verification' of the validity of the 'theory'.

A variant of this same message - "the source of trouble" - was promulgated in the Katrina coverage as well. Who's face graced the media as 'the suffering poor'? Black people again!
Yet whose community is the slowest to receive aid commensurate with their damages? I'll let you guess.

The resultant 'classifications' for Black Americans CAN'T be good. They are either 'soon to be shot' or 'soon to be impoverished' or 'soon to suffer'. It makes it hard for a 'regular' (or "progressive") Black person to get anything done or be taken seriously. Even if the reaction isn't outright 'eww! get away!', it can become 'there, there. I know you can't handle anything yourself' paternalism. Each is a burden in its own way.

That was my point.

As for there being 'some' subset of African Americans who 'buy into' the concept of hip-hop being the 'authentic representation of Black America' - I say this because I know some of those people. I talk to them regularly and they do 'buy into' that concept. Some get subscriptiosn and some buy an issue at a time, but they purchase regularly at the 'hip-hop is the voice of resistance' window. Hip-hop CAN be a voice of resistance, but like much in America, hip-hop is a product; a fashion and it is sold. Hell, 'resistance' is 'sold' as a fashion here - remember the "Rebel without a Cause", James Dean? Marketed 'rebelllion' is what he was.

I agree with you..most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America. My susggestion, and I suggest it to [almost] all 'minorities' here in the USA, IF your plan is to be a citizen, then define yourself as 'American' and take ownership of your country. Stop renting your nation and buy in. This doesn't mean 'love it or leave it' but recognize who and what you are and run with it. WE can reshape this thing to be more representative of us too. It galls me every time I meet someone whom I've spoken to over the phone or on-line and they say "Oh. I thought you were American. You are so articulate!"
I AM F***$%# American you idiot! And a college graduate to boot. Of course I'm articulate!!

AS for Coolio, last I saw his no-talent-having, non-rhyme-saying, stupid hair wearing skinny behind he was playing the requisite 'Black American Drug Dealer' doing poorly choreographed martial arts moves in a Chinese film where the Chinese cop was the most round-eyed Chinese guy you were going to find ANYWHERE named 'Steve' or some such nonsense. Needless to say, Coolio met his demise at the hands of 'Steve' on a rooftop somewhere over a fantasy 'Shanghai'. This was on a flight to Taipei. Of course, Coolio was the only Black person in the movie. I thought to myself, "Damn, I feel sorry for Black people! To be represented by Coolio. Damn."

Oh, it occurs to me that as for your parents being